Wednesday, May 11, 2016

Air force comparisons

In the past, I have often seen or tried to stop discussions over what I call vs battles. Military fans universally love to debate whether one aircraft is better than another one. There are many good reasons for that obviously. For PLAAF, if w can determine that J-10 is stronger in air combat than flankers and are up to part or close to up to part with the teens and eurocanards, then China can deal with all of the surrounding threats. More contemporarily, the argument of J-20 vs F-35 vs F-22 vs PAK-FA is popular in establishing China’s future options against US and its allies.

In general, I have not enjoyed to get involved with such discussions, because I don’t think they yield good discussions or give good indications of how real world combat scenarios will turn out. Recently, there were some discussions regarding the results of PLAAF’s exercises with Thailand. It was mentioned on Chinese forums that PLAAF sent flankers. The flankers apparently won dogfights but lost on BVR engagements. This led to numerous people asking about which type of flankers were sent. If earlier versions of flankers like Su-27 or J-11 were sent, then it would be okay if they did not win the BVR exchanges. I immediately thought about the exercise they had several years ago with Turkey. In that exercise, China sent some earlier flankers and Turkey used F-4s (or at least that’s what we presume since F-16s were not involved). I presume China sends earlier flankers because flight characteristics and avionics of these fighter jets are well known, whereas J-10 and even J-11B numbers are very well guarded state secrets. At the time of exercise, it was rumoured on Chinese forums that the flankers were crushed in the exercise and that the DACT were designed in a way that put Chinese jets in very disadvantageous positions. While none of the rumoured results can be confirmed, I think there are a lot of good reasons why PLAAF would take this approach. Back in 2005, there were a lot of excitements amongst Indian defense followers because IAF fighter jets had done well against F-15Cs in DACT with USAF. Even though it was reported that USAF fighter jets were operating under very challenging conditions on what they could or could not do, many IAF fans were excited to report that Su-30K and Mig-21 Bisons had beaten the F-15Cs.

With that in mind, I think we should consider why PLAAF participates in these exercises and what it has to gain by setting certain DACT scenarios. For the former, I think that PLAAF recognizes it does not do enough training with other air forces, so these exercises are valuable in learning about flying styles and tactics of other air forces. In the exercises with Turkey, I think PLAAF purposefully set challenging conditions so it can see how NATO air forces operate with numerical advantages, EW advantages and BVR advantages. So even if Turkey does not showcase F-16s, PLAAF had a lot to gain by participating in them. I’m not saying that Su-27s are significantly better than later F-4s or that PLAAF pilots are at the same level of NATO pilots. Those are things I simply don’t have enough data on. Compared to NATO, PLAAF is still at a very early stage in DACT exercises. PLAAF Su-27s and early J-11As have probably participated in most number of DACT engagements in China’s own version of Red/Blue flag exercises. Early on, they were consistently defeated by J-7s even though they are much superior aircraft. Flankers won later when PLAAF developed better tactics for them. So when PLAAF encounters a more experienced air force like Turkey, it would have a lot of learning to do. PLAAF recognizes that in many realistic war scenarios, its fighters could be facing massive disadvantages in the operational environment. From that, it would be logical to do various DACT under disadvantageous conditions even if PLAAF pilots have to suffer some humble pie. I can’t speak for the results of Pakistan or Thailand, but I think without knowing PLAAF’s intentions and the DACT scenarios, results of these exercises are not too meaningful even if we know the aircraft types. I do read from the big shrimps on Chinese bbs that PAF pilots are better than PLAAF pilots. If that is still the case, then it makes even more sense for PLAAF to train more regularly with PAF.

J-10A and J-11 have made a good pairing for PLAAF for the past 10 years and would hold up against current front line fighter jet in surrounding countries like Su-27/30, F-15J, F-16C/D and Mig-29s. J-10B/C and J-16 will be comparable or a little inferior to the latest eurocanards, Su-35s, F-15K/SG and F-18E/F. On paper, they have the latest avionics (including AESA radar), a full range of multirole capability and improved range compare to their base models. Even with higher thrust engines, will they still be capable of having the same flight performance as earlier models when we considered the increased weight from all these changes? As for J-20, I think it has many advantages over PAK-FA, but less so against F-22/35, especially in the environment that they are likely to operate in. J-31 seems like a good second project, but we are still waiting to see what the second prototype looks like. It could turn out to be a genuine lower cost 5th generation fighter jet or one that’s significantly more stealthy than eurocanards and F-18E/F, but also lacking the full aspect stealth, flight performance and networking centric capability of a true 5th generation aircraft. Until J-20 gets mature and installed with WS15, it will have similar concerns. That’s how I would rate them.

40 comments:

Neanderthal said...

Thanks Feng for the post. I think you are one of the most logical and fact based posters I have come across on these topics. Considering that WS-15 is just 2-3 years out and WS-13 maybe a couple of years after that, it seems justified to compare J-20 and J-31 with their intended engines. As far as being networked, with the state of the art aesa comes a high bandwidth data link. The rest is just programming. Comparing to the rest of the designing, especially the engine design, I don't expect the Chinese to be stumped by programming. So can you explain why you think J-20 and J-31 would lack the network centric capability?

Unknown said...

Platform on platform comparisons are useless. It's all about systems.

Jass Simran said...

Siddhu Defence Academy, Dehradun established in the year 2010. by Mr. Sahin Siddhu (M.Sc Mathematics). He is a Best trainer of defence fild and a trained Group testing Officer.

Ground zero defence institute in dehradun

NDA coaching centre

Airforce coaching center

http://www.siddhudefenceacademy.com/

Suseela said...


Thank you for taking the time to provide us with your valuable information. We strive to provide our candidates with excellent care and we take your comments to heart.As always, we appreciate your confidence and trust in us.


SEO Company in Chennai

Unknown said...


Thanks for sharing your useful article with us to gain our knoweledge in a better way. SEO Company in
Chennai

Unknown said...

Independence Day Quotes

Blog FastCare said...

Thanks for sharing!
----------------
I'm working in the thay man hinh xiaomi. It's amazing

ipl 9 live score said...

I do not know if it’s just me or if everyone else experiencing
issues with your site. It appears as though some of the text within your posts
are running off the screen. Can somebody else please provide feedbackThis might be a problem with my internet browser because I’ve had
this happen before.
Happy Veterans Day 2016 Images
Happy Veterans Day 2016 Pictures
Happy Veterans Day 2016 Pics
Happy Veterans Day 2016 Quotes
Happy Veterans Day 2016 Wishes
Happy Veterans Day 2016 Photos
Happy Veterans Day 2016 Wallpapers
Happy Veterans Day 2016 Parade

ipl 9 live score said...

Happy Halloween Pictures 2016
Happy Halloween 2016 Images
Happy Halloween 2016 Pictures
Happy Halloween 2016 Photos
Happy Halloween 2016 Wallpapers
Happy Halloween 2016 Quotes
Happy Halloween 2016 Greetings
Happy Halloween 2016 Sayings

Javanese Trans said...

Thank you , indeed force warfare equipment will enhance security and stability of the country. But if you look at the situation after the fights , much will be more miserable than we see the power of our war equipment . regards sewa mobil di malang

amber gandotra said...

192.168.1
192.168
192.168.l
192.168 l l
http 192.168.1.1

Unknown said...

Happy Halloween 2016
Happy Halloween 2016 Images
Happy Halloween Pictures 2016
Happy Halloween 2016 Quotes
Happy Halloween 2016 Photos
Happy Halloween 2016 Wallpapers
Happy Halloween 2016 Greetings
Happy Halloween 2016 Sayings
Happy Halloween 2016 Wishes
Happy Halloween 2016 Messages
Happy Halloween 2016 Jokes
Happy Halloween 2016 Trolls
Halloween Pumpkin Carving Ideas 2016
Halloween Pumpkin Carving Stencils Patterns 2016

AJAY said...

Halloween is a festival which is more than 2000 year old Halloween Horror Outfits Idea It was until the

19th century when the festival of Halloween somehow made its way

Unknown said...

Diwali is one of the best festival of the year for which everyone waits throughout the year. Advance Happy Diwali Wishes This year the festival of lights is on 30th October 2016. There are several reasons behind the occasion of Diwali.

Jhon Pantau said...

In my opinion, the battle may not be able to solve a problem between countries. Because of the war will bring misery in both countries. Increase war equipment is very necessary for the defense of a country. But it would be better if we put forward the bilateral relations between countries, so that the war did not happen and between countries can help each other more. Regards, sewa mobil hiace di malang

ipl 9 live score said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
puja singh said...


thanks for the nice article great work
Holi Images

LiveMNC.com said...

LiveMNC is one of the best cheap web hosting services provider company in India. We have wide range of web hosting plan suitable for your business.
Address ~ 200, BASSI, Near Agra Road, Jaipur~05, Rajasthan India 303305

We Craft Stunning Websites, App and Digital Marketing.

cheap web hosting services in India
Best Website Designing and Development services in India
<

Call: + 91-9461234545 |(Multi-channel)(LiveMNC.com)

anti.insects7@gmail.com said...

فريق عمل شركة مكافحة حشرات يمكنه العمل في اي وقت فور التواصل معنا وطلب الخدمة يمكننا ارسال فريق العمل فورا ايل اي مكان مجهزين باحدث ادوات من شركة ابادة حشرات للعمل علي التخلص منها وتوفير الامن والراحة للعملاء باقل التكاليف .

http://www.anti-insects.com

3nod maka said...

شركة العنود تعد شركة تنظيف خزانات بمكة حيث انها تعمل علي توفير افضل خدماتها في اعمال تنظيف الخزانات لضمان شرب مياة صالحة للاستخدام وغير ضارة علي الصحة لذلك تواصل معنا لارسال فريق شركة عزل الخزانات فى مكة اليك فورا في اي وقت كما اننا نوفر خدمات شركة مكافحة الحشرات بمكة باقل الاسعار الان لضمان خدمة وراحة العملاء .

http://www.el3nod.com/1/company-tanks-isolation-cleaning-mecca

http://www.el3nod.com/5/company-anti-insect-termite-Pesticides-mecca

Unknown said...

Refrigerator Repair in Jaipur
Water Cooler repair in Jaipur
Washing Machine Repair in Jaipur
washing machine service in Jaipur
Ro water purifier service in Jaipur

Unknown said...

washing machine service in Jaipur
Ro water purifier service in Jaipur
Ro Repair in Jaipur
RO Service Centre in Jaipur
Microwave oven repair in jaipur

Unknown said...

propose day quotes for husband
propose day images with quotes
propose day quotes for friends
happy proposes day quotes
propose day hd images download
happy proposes day images free
proposes day messages for wife
happy proposes day quotes

Ancy merina said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Sandeep Kumar said...

Thanks for sharing such a valuable post I will bookmark your site for new post , Thanks!!


NDA Coaching in Dehradun
Best NDA coaching institute in Dehradun
Best SSB Coachign in Dehradun
Best SSB Coachign Institute in Dehradun
CDS Coaching in Dehradun
NDA fees in Dehradun
airforce coaching in Dehradun
RIMC Coaching in Dehradun
Merchant Navy Coaching in Dehradun

Minakshi said...


Defence Coaching in Dehradun
Advance defence Academy
About Advance defence Academy
About NDA - Advance defence Academy
About CDS- Advance defence Academy]
Admission in ADA
Courses in ADA
Advance defence Academy - Gallery
Contact Advance defence Academy
Advance defence Academy

Ayush said...

Minerva Institute of Managemt & Technology
Fashion Designing course in Dehradun
Drawing & Painting Course in Dehradun
Fine Arts Course in Dehrdun
Animation & Multimedia Course in Dehradun
Journalism & Mass Communication Course in Dehradun
Commerce & Management Courses in Dehradun
About Minerva

abhishek said...

Thank For sharing this Information

hikebrothers

Kareri Lake Trek

Tarsar Marsar Trek

Patangniya Top Trek

Nag Tibba Trek

Dayara Bugyal Trek

Chopta Chandrashilla Trek

Homestay at Ukhimath

Unknown said...

See 5 Most deadliest rollar coaster rides in the world

Warriors defence said...

Thanks for sharing article

AFCAT coaching in dehradun
NDA coaching in dehradun
SSB coaching in dehradun

S Roy said...

It is such a wonderful blog. it’s so helpful. Thank you for share your knowledge with us...


Roy Services Centre

Voltas AC Service Center in Kolkata

LG AC Service Center in Kolkata

Samsung AC Service Center in Kolkata

Subhendu Kanp said...

First of all, I want to thank you. Because for this great post you really deserve a big thumbs up. this blog helped me so much.



AC Service Centre in Kolkata

Samsung AC Service Centre in Kolkata

LG AC Service Centre in Kolkata

>Daikin AC Service Centre in KOLKATA

Tapas Biswas said...

It’s a really helpful blog. Thank you for share your knowledge.

aya Centre in Kolkata

mai said...


مؤسسة الصرح جروب لجميع خدمات
نقل العفش
تخزين اثاث
تنظيف المنازل
مكافحة الحشرات
جميع الخدمات المنزلية بالرياض
افضل شركات نقل عفش بالرياض
اسعار شركات نقل العفش بالرياض
شركة نقل اثاث بالرياض رخيصه
شركات نقل وتخزين الأثاث
شركة نقل اثاث بالرياض رخيصه

ارقام نقل عفش بالرياض 0533356456
شركه نقل عفش بالرياض
نقل عفش بالرياض حراج
افضل شركات نقل عفش بالرياض
طريقة تغليف العفش لسلامة النقل

Travel Golum said...

Interesting Post.
See 5 most deadliest roller coasters in the world

Ground Zero Defence Institute said...

Best NDA institute in Dehradun

In recent times, Ground Zero Defence Institute has become one of the top Defence Coaching Centers in Dehradun . There are more than 500 pupils from the GZDI Classes are employed at the rank of officer in INDIAN DEFENCE FORCES . The GZDI comprehensive training prepares people to crack the coveted defence exams and the interviews. The defense coaching center located in Dehradun believe in turning education into a reputed Job. Because the center has hit the markup level of 200 selected candidates to upright designations with the titles of Pilot Officer, acting sub-lieutenant deputy lieutenant Air Craftsmen etc it established benchmarks for coaching institutes. We take pride in being India's most prestigious training center for NDA Entry Coaching.

Concerning the recent achievements In the past, the GZDI is responsible for nearly half of all selections carried out for defence over the last six years in Uttarakhand which is that a lot. There's nothing else like it. Of all the Defense Coaching Centers in Dehradun, Ground Zero Defence Institute was established as a top rank institute exclusively with the intent of helping serious learners get through their Defence exam by providing top quality coaching. The instructional method, curriculum and teaching standards set by the GZDI are now synonymous with success for students.

GZDI is the first in its field to provide the most professional NDA Coaching, CDS instruction, SSB, SSC, Delhi police, Bank clerical coaching and it also offers all types of commissions in Armed and Para Military Forces. SSB Training is managed by a the professional team of instructors who are highly knowledgeable of the subject and interviewing techniques.

Swati said...

About Trishul Defence Academy

At the very heart of this lively city, Trishul Defence Academy is your foremost choice for entering the realm of defense services, specializing in a variety of privileged courses like NDA/CDS, AFCAT/NAVY MR, AIR FORCE X & Y COACHING, MNS, INET, and also including SSB interview preparation and core foundation for NDA.
This Academy was founded in 2003 by the visionary, Late Wing Commander Anoop Mehrotra, fondly remembered as the “SSB Guru” due to his prominence in helping as many students crack the ever-competitive SSB interview. We here try to preserve his legacy by providing a world-class teaching facility that helps aspirants be mentally as well as physically prepared to pursue their dream of joining defense services.

Realizing that foundations are vital in preparing a pupil for forthcoming obstacles, Trishul Academy offers its NDA Foundation course for students in Classes XI and XII, apart from written courses like CDS, AFCAT, and so on, which has an integrated approach so that students are not perplexed coping up with the school syllabus. The course duration is 1 year, with the option to attend speaking English classes on a daily basis. As per the student’s comfort, they can opt for the Hindi/English medium of teaching.

https://www.trishuldefenceacademy.com/dehradun.php

Defence Guru said...

Centurion Defence Academy in Dehradun is a leading institution known for its exceptional NDA foundation coaching. If you aspire to join the National Defence Academy (NDA), Dehradun offers a conducive environment, and Centurion Defence Academy stands out as a trusted name in the field. In this blog post, we will delve into the Best CDS coaching in Dehradun and explore how it can help you achieve your goals.

Defence Guru said...

Choosing the right best CDS coaching in Dehradun can significantly enhance your chances of success in the exam. The city's academic excellence, serene environment, and availability of top coaching institutes make it an ideal destination for CDS preparation. Whether you opt for Centurion Defence Acadmey, Dehradun Defence Acadmey, or PQR Classes, rest assured that you will receive expert guidance and comprehensive support on your journey to becoming a part of the prestigious defense forces. Take the first step towards your dream career by enrolling in a CDS coaching institute in Dehradun today.

Indian defence academy said...

Best NDA coaching in India