tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2810814791836407713.post2000696713961887105..comments2024-03-27T00:29:11.029-07:00Comments on China Air and Naval Power: The white elephants of PLANUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2810814791836407713.post-58602370973354169142012-11-30T13:09:34.685-08:002012-11-30T13:09:34.685-08:00Retired these 4 sov from PLAN, refit them to be us...Retired these 4 sov from PLAN, refit them to be used as maritime patrol ship.Use them to patrol the disputed islands with Japan, and collier with any Japanese ship get in her way.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01344078576157237677noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2810814791836407713.post-83777539261293780342012-10-31T01:26:59.203-07:002012-10-31T01:26:59.203-07:00Thanks for great information you write it very cle...Thanks for great information you write it very clean. I am very lucky to get this tips from you. <br /><a href="" rel="nofollow">US Taxi Service</a>PHL Taxihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05122054053217602930noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2810814791836407713.post-10304207885051064452012-10-18T17:00:06.031-07:002012-10-18T17:00:06.031-07:00I really don't know about that. I think that ...I really don't know about that. I think that will be a question that only a true PLAN insider can answer.Fenghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09351872761178293322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2810814791836407713.post-11092208093760242602012-10-17T20:55:44.762-07:002012-10-17T20:55:44.762-07:00Just wanted to post a separate question that I'...Just wanted to post a separate question that I've been pondering for some time (not sure where to post this question so I just raise it here)- why are PLAN warships painted a light gray / off-white? Would this not compromise its ability to stay camouflaged against the sea?<br /><br />I would think that compared to US / Japanese warships (moderate gray) and Russian warships (dark gray), PLAN ships tend to stand out very clearly against the sea especially when the sea is blue (under sunny weather). I know some ppl say we are passed the age of fighting close range, but if it should ever come to a close range fire fight, would not sea camouflage matter? <br /><br />Do you think the PLAN should revert to a darker gray for its warships?JedLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15881691047386318157noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2810814791836407713.post-33298141156183492102012-10-11T21:43:12.730-07:002012-10-11T21:43:12.730-07:00Or Meng Yuan, I guess you want to suggest those 05...Or Meng Yuan, I guess you want to suggest those 051C to be radar pickets rather than AA missile platform in Bohai, just like the US Navy does in WWII and the PIRAZ in Vietnam War? But it still lack one thing, good long range radar.SK2https://www.blogger.com/profile/08351501319320355722noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2810814791836407713.post-36238701026496247762012-10-11T21:02:35.106-07:002012-10-11T21:02:35.106-07:00Meng-yuan, as you have emphasized that the 956EM w...Meng-yuan, as you have emphasized that the 956EM was designed to attack "outlying escorts of the CBG", let's think of the following:<br /><br />1. What are the "outlying escorts of CBG"?<br /><br />Apart from the missile-less Perrys, the rest are Aegis boats.<br /><br />2. What are the weapons 956EM can use against these escorts?<br /><br />3M80E, AK-130<br /><br />Hmm......so what you want to say is that 956EM was was designed specifically to attack Aegis boats, but 3M80E wasn't? So are you saying that the AK-130 (or AK-630 if you want :P ) are designed specifically to attack these outlying vessels?<br /><br /><br /><br />Regarding the 051C question, the PLAN purchased the system way before the 052C matures, and that act as a stop-gap measure until the PLAN got a indigenous, formidable and reliable Area Air Defense System. As the 052C system matures there were no need to purchase more than 2 Rif-M system.<br /><br />For the role you suggested, even if both 051C boats are available, do you think 48 x 2 missiles can defend from waves of F/A-18E/F attack from multiple number of carriers? And what about the cruise missiles in the CBG also?SK2https://www.blogger.com/profile/08351501319320355722noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2810814791836407713.post-30485335475157470202012-10-11T16:09:02.357-07:002012-10-11T16:09:02.357-07:00SK2,
I will ignore your evidence-free name callin...SK2,<br /><br />I will ignore your evidence-free name calling and just comment on the two paragraphs with some substance. <br /><br />I did not say that 3M80E (I suppose that is what you meant by 3N80?) was designed against Aegis. I only talked about 956EM. It seems your logic is as spotty as your typing/spelling.<br /><br />If 051C is designed for general AA, then you have answered the question of why just two? Why only for the North Sea Fleet? Why even bother when 052C was already available earlier? The fact that they got sent to long trips is irrelevant, because the needs of PLAN certainly change with time and old equipment often find new uses. We were talking about what it was designed for, not what it is good for.Meng-yuanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04929886311002300779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2810814791836407713.post-39933382446882931742012-10-10T18:07:06.287-07:002012-10-10T18:07:06.287-07:00@Feng Very good analysis as always. Thank you for ...@Feng Very good analysis as always. Thank you for the insights. I think hindsight is always 20/20, but reality is that the money spent on these trades could've been invested elsewhere.<br /><br />@odessaguy China hasn't considered Taiwan as a serious military threats for a long long time. She still has to counter Taiwan's procurements to maintain military supremacy.jxzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07982394855217746107noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2810814791836407713.post-19890024299712034272012-10-05T06:17:38.763-07:002012-10-05T06:17:38.763-07:00The idea that the PRC panics when Taiwan gets a fe...The idea that the PRC panics when Taiwan gets a few new weapons is laughable. Taiwan could never represent a military threat to China. So why panic and buy Sovs and Su-30's, Kilos from Russia? <br /><br />odessaguyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06353571309499800392noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2810814791836407713.post-31857848309853001422012-10-05T00:53:20.926-07:002012-10-05T00:53:20.926-07:00Those so called insider comments are being laughed...Those so called insider comments are being laughed by many already.....and I am sure Feng has access to those insider comments as me and you do also.<br /><br />Regarding the lack of anti-ASM/SSM ability of the 956, after the purchase of it, some suggested to put it with the LuHu (052A) as a working pair, just like the Brits 42-22 trap. And for several years we can see the 956 always go to training/patrol with the 053H4, acting in the same way as the 42-22 trap again, providing limited area air defense and limited anti-ASM/SSM ability.<br /><br />Meng, when the 3N80 was born the Aegis wasn't being installed in the first Tico yet. And now you are saying they are designed to kill Aegis? LOL<br /><br />Regarding the 051C's function. First it wasn't being built for protecting the Bohai but for general anti-AA. It did went for Somali patrol (which some laughed as negligence of duty to protect the party) but not being selected again because of the heavy fuel consumption and lack of hangar.<br /><br />For the choice of 051C, some suggested the first hull (114) was the wasted hull of an unfinished 051B, which stopped incomplete after the 167 has finished building. It was put aside for a while until the PLAN selected to purchase the Rif-M.SK2https://www.blogger.com/profile/08351501319320355722noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2810814791836407713.post-49736153539788229102012-10-04T16:01:29.149-07:002012-10-04T16:01:29.149-07:00I can agree to disagree, since overall you are sti...I can agree to disagree, since overall you are still a rational thinker. Furthermore, this is your blog after all.<br /><br />I have to clarify, however, that most of my statements are based on Chinese insider comments, e.g. the reason why the PLAAF refuses to buy JF-17, why the PLAN ordered type 051C and 956EM. There is nothing I said here that is my original contribution, but that should be a good thing as none is speculative, at least not from me.<br /><br />The only item that is from Western source is my comment on Rumsfeld's plan to attack China. This is from the memoirs of several retired US generals/admirals. kingping, calling someone a liar is a serious accusation, at least in the US, so I think I am justified to point out that you are an idiot.<br /><br />Meng-yuanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04929886311002300779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2810814791836407713.post-53364226430128160292012-10-03T00:44:49.872-07:002012-10-03T00:44:49.872-07:00Feng you Rock! Love your blog!Feng you Rock! Love your blog!kingpinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13616652404395111519noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2810814791836407713.post-12949514069866826792012-10-02T08:13:07.026-07:002012-10-02T08:13:07.026-07:00I understand why China did what it did, but it doe...I understand why China did what it did, but it doesn't mean I have to agree with all of their moves. For example, I actually agree with Kilo and Su-30, but am against 956EM and Rif purchase. It's a testament of the advancement of PLAN that 054A and 052D are so advanced now. However, just because there are reasons why these high profile imports are playing second fiddles now, does not mean that these systems are not "white elephants". Reading through reports on sov destroyers in recent times with PLAN, it's a real headache on what PLAN should do with these ships.<br /><br />Btw, if you think 956EM was designed specifically to attack the outlying escort vessels of CVBG, then you've really bought into the arguments of China-threat group like Richard Fisher and such. The Soviets designed the Sov destroyers to support amphibious landings. Its anti-shipping prowess can't compete with any of the cruisers or bombers or attack subs. It was certainly not the best China could've done. Do you really think the 4 Sov can provide the same fire power as a couple of flotilla of 022s with Y-8 providing targeting data? As for 051C missile being better than 052C missiles at the time, that would only be the case if you factor out the combat system and the more power radars on 052C. 051C was an insurance policy for 052C, but due to the Russian slowness, it became an after thought. And now, it's stuck to operate in NSF, because you can't put it in a carrier group or even along with 052C/D as escorts in a expeditionary group. And it's still very new, so what should PLAN do with this ship? These are the questions that we need to ask. Ships like 052B and 051B and 052A are also left behind by the overall advancements. But guess what, they are still making these long deployments around the world for various missions. In 052A/B, they are not using steam turbine propulsions and have much better ASW capabilities against the near sea threats. And they don't have the same sticker shock as the imports. So if PLAN moves them to a secondary role, it's not a big deal.<br /><br />Look, I don't have time to go through all of your angers toward my critic of PLAN. I'm not here to be a cheer leader. I think from your responses, you seem to get offended by the very idea that China could've made than a non optimal move or that Russian import is proving to be a logistical nightmare.Fenghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09351872761178293322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2810814791836407713.post-85006343950789522132012-10-02T00:28:38.393-07:002012-10-02T00:28:38.393-07:00
Making claims that can never be proved or refuted...<br />Making claims that can never be proved or refuted like the entire Soviet era fleet is a white elephant hardly advances your argument.<br /><br />hkbchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00121821707423222031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2810814791836407713.post-51364921444770942202012-10-01T23:21:54.450-07:002012-10-01T23:21:54.450-07:00Meng is funny! USA planning to attack china, lucky...Meng is funny! USA planning to attack china, lucky USA was busy in Irak! Pffffff what a stupid comment !!! If China was Irak. Like Deng ones said China is no Argentina!!!!!!kingpinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13616652404395111519noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2810814791836407713.post-66162702368838325462012-10-01T12:50:52.121-07:002012-10-01T12:50:52.121-07:00I should add that the 956EM design was completed b...I should add that the 956EM design was completed by 2001 and the contract officially signed in early 2002, so the initial request had to be in 2000 or earlier. It was therefore clearly not a response to the weapon sales to Taiwan.<br /><br />The two 051Cs were deployed to the North Sea Fleet because Bohai was where they needed to sit in waiting and intercept incoming planes from US carriers. The 956EM went to the East Sea Fleet so that it could attack the carrier fleets themselves in joint operation with SU-30s.<br /><br />I think we can safely conclude that the Taiwan weapon sales was not the primary driver of those purchases.Meng-yuanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04929886311002300779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2810814791836407713.post-55718587980303448152012-10-01T12:25:26.796-07:002012-10-01T12:25:26.796-07:00The 2002 weapon sale to Taiwan necessitated upgrad...The 2002 weapon sale to Taiwan necessitated upgrades in PLAAF and the amphibious arm of PLAA; Chinese investments in the navy were obviously aimed at deterring the US carrier groups up until recently, when blue water capability became within reach of the PLAN.<br /><br />956EM was designed specifically to attack the outlying escort vessels of American carrier group. I don't understand your use of the word "laughable". Maybe in reality it wouldn't have worked against American fleets, but it was the best China could get at the time.<br /><br />The Kilo was much better than anything China could produce 10 years ago. The PLAN brass thought the improved Kilo would bolster their deterrence capability further. The hole design was an example I used to illustrate fringe benefits, which definitely encouraged the buy-Russian mentality.<br /><br />The 051C was authorized in early 2000s. Obviously, the design bureau screwed up and had a bad delay in delivering it. Not all Chinese weapon designers work together as one unit or are up to the same competence level. Shenyang's struggle with J-11 is another perfect example.<br /><br />You do know that the AA missiles on 052C were not as capable as those on 051C, at least when the ships were first delivered?<br /><br />China had tremendous luck in that the US got bogged down in Iraq and could not spare much attention to start a war in East Asia for an entire decade, but back than, even as Rumsfeld organized the attack on Saddam Hussein, he was also urging his generals to plan for an attack against China. His comments were often made in public, and Chinese intelligence would have to be totally inept not to pick them up.<br /><br />Back in 2002/2003, few could project that Iraq would turn into a quagmire for so long. Quite the contrary, the logical expectation was that once the US finished the job in a year or two, it would be looking for its next victim. After all, less than two years separated the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq. A 2005/2006 delivery date was not fast enough for China, but still better than doing nothing. <br /><br />Back to the original issue of whether these ships became "white elephants". We have to remember that we are talking about modern China, where skyscrapers got built and torn down in cycles of a few years, not decades. These ships may seem unfit for the new missions now, but the same can be said to pretty much everything the PLA procured 10-15 years ago. Given the small numbers of units purchased (especially the 051C), your criticism seems a little harsh to me.Meng-yuanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04929886311002300779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2810814791836407713.post-857669181894060172012-10-01T08:55:45.355-07:002012-10-01T08:55:45.355-07:00Feng is right that the orders were responses to Bu...Feng is right that the orders were responses to Bush's arms sales to Taiwan, not Hainan incident.<br /><br />That these Russian platforms have become "white elephants" for PLAN is a testament to the tremendous progress that China has made in naval weapon development in the last decade.<br /><br />The 956EM's and the additional Kilo's were necessary and understandable, although they were not ideal and the best China could get. Keep in mind that the cross-strait tension lasted until Ma took office in Taiwan in 2008. The chance for military action in Taiwan theater was real and could not be discounted. The the quantity of 052B/C is not enough and their capabilities were uncertain at the time. They were stop-gap measures and insurance.<br /><br />So these "white elephants" from Russia served as deterrence and were not entirely waste of money.<br /><br />As a side note, the Su-27 for PLAAF has been a very successful import.Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00114624570767727889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2810814791836407713.post-27075169764508068102012-10-01T08:54:34.764-07:002012-10-01T08:54:34.764-07:00Feng is right that the orders were responses to Bu...Feng is right that the orders were responses to Bush's arms sales to Taiwan, not Hainan incident.<br /><br />That these Russian platforms have become "white elephants" for PLAN is a testament to the tremendous progress that China has made in naval weapon development in the last decade.<br /><br />The 956EM's and the additional Kilo's were necessary and understandable, although they were not ideal and the best China could get. Keep in mind that the cross-strait tension lasted until Ma took office in Taiwan in 2008. The chance for military action in Taiwan theater was real and could not be discounted. The the quantity of 052B/C is not enough and their capabilities were uncertain at the time. They were stop-gap measures and insurance.<br /><br />So these "white elephants" from Russia served as deterrence and were not entirely waste of money.<br /><br />As a side note, the Su-27 for PLAAF has been a very successful import.Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00114624570767727889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2810814791836407713.post-31836313720733418192012-10-01T05:49:44.870-07:002012-10-01T05:49:44.870-07:00The orders put in 2002 were clearly counter to Bus...The orders put in 2002 were clearly counter to Bush's proposed weapon package for Taiwan. As I said, I can understand the decisions that were made, but in hindsight, they were the wrong moves.<br /><br />The idea that 956EM can actually be "a defense" against carrier strike is laughable. The entire Sov fleet is the definition of "white elephant" in PLAN. Su-30 is a different story and I can talk about it in a separate entry, but it represented a change in PLAAF doctrine.<br /><br />As for shape of drainage holes, they already had 4 kilo (with of the improved variety), why would they need another 8 to help with subsequent designs?<br /><br />You do realize that China did not get those second two 956 and 051Cs until 2006, right? That was after China had already gotten the 4 052B/C. And of course, the induction 054As a year later basically removed the need for the 956s.<br /><br />So where does your 10 years come from?Fenghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09351872761178293322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2810814791836407713.post-90394045260982247752012-09-30T13:13:09.793-07:002012-09-30T13:13:09.793-07:00I disagree.
China did panic in early 2000s, but i...I disagree.<br /><br />China did panic in early 2000s, but it was over the EP-3E incident. This happened during Bush administration's early months, before 9/11. There was a real danger that those neocons newly in power would start a war against China to suppress its rise. With DF-21D still in development, China realized that it had no defense against a carrier strike on Beijing. All three weapons mentioned in your article (plus SU-30) were procured on an emergency basis as stop-gap measure.<br /><br />Viewed in this light, the decision becomes quite rational. For example, type 051C makes no sense as fleet defense, but as mobile AA missile platforms stationed in Bohai, it is perfectly suited to intercept incoming F-18E/Fs. <br /><br />As for the Russian imports, they also serve as samples for reverse engineering. The various component weaponry is obviously adaptable to indigenous platforms. Even little things like the shape of draining holes on the Kilo helps improve subsequent Chinese designs.<br /><br />In all, the rapid rise of Chinese military power does not negate the urgency of acquiring temporary solutions a decade ago. These seemingly "white elephants" ensured peace and security for 10 years and promoted development of modern replacements. It was the right decision to purchase them.Meng-yuanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04929886311002300779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2810814791836407713.post-20330447575518187292012-09-30T02:37:21.978-07:002012-09-30T02:37:21.978-07:00http://alltibet.com
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