Saturday, October 4, 2008

J-8H stats and latest from the shipyards

So, the eyes have shifted away from the Olympics to the Shenzhou-7 mission recently. Even as this is happening, the shipyard construction in JiangNan and Huangpu shipyards. Here is a new photo from JN shipyard making waves.

With the new photo that we are seeing from JN shipyard, it's quite apparent that we will see a huge PLAN shipbuilding boom in this area. And for all the PLA followers out there, I don't think there can be a more exciting time. Just recently, we already saw at least 4 finished Type 022 FACs in the 3rd line of the Changxin shpyard (where all the military ships are built). Now, people are pointing at different sections trying to say which section is for what kind of ship. Of course, the speculation in the picture below is that it is the first section of China's first aircraft carrier to be built. I can't verify the validity of the statement, but I figure the work must have started already, since a lot of the parts are already supplied there. Give it a couple of years, we should see the ship really taking shape in this yard. The only question is whether we will see 1 or 2 carrier getting built at the same time. I suspect 1, since China likes to test out its design before continuing production. Other possible large ships would be the Type 081 LPH and Type 071 LPD, although it seems LPD construction is left to HuDong and Dalian shipyard. People are also speculating which large section is for the newly planned DDGs. Unfortunately, we only get aerial views of this shipyard, so we don't get those really nice up-close photo of the newly built ships anymore. For those of us that have been following 054A and 071 construction, it really is quite a disappointment. In many ways, this year hasn't been the building boom I predicted. Most of the large ship built have been medical ships, YuanWang ships and large tug ships. With JN finally seeing light of the day, we could well be seeing aircraft carrier, 071, 052D, 054A, Yuan and 022 being built at the same time.

Here are some photos from HD shipyard showing the sensors fit on the first F-22P. The pictures are for the front mast and the sensors supporting CIWS on top of the hangar


And this is a very good recent full view photo of the 3rd 054A being built in HP shipyard. It's showing the bow mounted sonar getting installed and the little platform for the AK-176M FCR getting installed. The platform for AK-176M was installed a few days ago. The windows are still nice and tiny.


Finally, I read some other interesting stuff on China's ASBM doctrine since the last post. It seems that PLAN placed heavy emphasis on the seeker of the ASBM. It expects to use land based OTH radar (I know, sounds crazy) and SAR satellites (I'm guessing the Yaogan series here) to track the location of the ship. Then, it will fire off a DF-15 or DF-21 to that location with not much mid-course updates. For a ballistic missile with a maximum speed of mach 6 (7400 km/h) , it will reach a target 2000 km away in less than 30 minutes. In 30 minutes, a carrier group can move at most 15 nm (< 30 km). In 10 to 20 minutes, a carrier group can move at most 10 to 20 km. The Chinese believe that the seeker on ASBM at really high altitude will be able to seek ships in a much large circumference. I would think finding the ship while traveling at such high speed would pose the largest technology barrier, since a seeker of something that fits a ballistic missile would be able to easily find a large ship within a 40 km radius if it's moving at much slower speed(an advanced multi-function fighter radar can detect ships at 300 km range). We know that fast AShM like Onix can find ships from that far out traveling at mach 3. The seeker for the BM would have to scan faster and have a really fast processor to process all the information. In the end of the day, all of the Chinese sources I have read express pretty firm belief that this ASBM doctrine is ready to be executed, while Western sources seem to believe that this is still being developed. I would tend to side with Chinese sources when I see this kind of conflicting views.


Interestingly from this list post, we saw what is probably the most detailed description of PLAAF tactic and J-8H performance. I don't ever recall seeing something so exact I guess. The source seems to be good, but it's hard to imagine how he was allowed to post something this specific. Anyway, for your convenient I have translated it.
升校官啦.....那就发些东西吧..........HDCKSJ---J8H
出动能力:出动率,团百分之80以上,飞机18架以上。昼间出动强度3次以上。完成再次出动所需准备时间, 团转

至新机场后1小时20分可再次起飞转场。完成起飞所需时间,大队2分33秒。中队33秒。中队与中队起飞间 隔16秒。完

成着陆所需时间,大队9分钟,中队1分44秒。

战斗队形:战斗出航时通常由2---4个4机编队组成大队梯队。截击空中目标时通常以4机编队活动。攻击地面目标

时通常为双机跟进队形,最佳队形为双机与双机距离1---1.5千米,双机间隔110米。

飞行速度:最大时速高空17000米,2337千米。低空200米,1010千米。攻击目标时速攻击地面目 标700---880千

米。截击空飘气球500---600千米。拦截空中飞机800---1940千米。

飞行高度:飞升限时18000米,对地攻击空中待战时2000---4000米,对地攻击战斗出航时通常800---3000米,最

高12000米。对地攻击战斗返航时通常1200---4500米,最高9000米。对地进入攻击时通常700---1600米。退出轰炸

时通常500---2100米。退出俯冲射击时通常离地350---400改平,上升至1000米以上脱离目标。对地面目标攻击时通常

500---1500米,最低200米,最高3000米。对空中目标攻击时通常3000---15000米,最低600米。

攻击地面目标:团每次出动兵力通常1个大队,飞机8架。加入战斗航线距离目标15千米左右。进入俯冲角度通 常

10---20度,有时30---45度。一次出动单机可进行攻击次数通常2---4次,最多6次。单机在目标区活动时间通常6---17

分钟。发射导弹高度500米,时速900千米时,发射距离大于50千米,高度6000米时,发射距离大于1 00千米。

截击空中目标:攻击方式在中高空通常采用90度,180度转弯低位对头攻击,或90度,180度转弯低位尾 追攻击。

负高度差通常在800---2500米,最小200米,最大5000米。在低空多用尾后高位攻击,高度差500---2000米。进入攻击

角度通常为10度---30度,最小0度,最大70度,投影比多为0/4,1/5.雷达开机时机通常距离目标45---80千米,最远

100千米。发现目标距离中 高空通常为75---90千米,最远110千米。截获目标距离在中高空通常为45---70千米。最远 80千米。低空通常为35---55千米。攻击目标距离在中高空通常单机进入一次实施两次攻击,首次攻击距目标40---65千米,最远80千米第二次攻击距目标20---33千米,最近4千米。攻击间隔5---11秒。低空通常为3---8千米。气象条件:可遂行战斗任务时目标区云底高600米,云量3---4个。机场区云高400米,云量6---8个,能见度5000米。
不可遂行战斗任务目标区云底高400米,云顶高3000米,能见度2000米

It says that J-8H can operate over 80% of time, with over 18 aircrafts (each regiment has 24). It takes 1 hour and 20 minutes to prepare the plane to fly again from a new airbase after arriiving there from another. It takes a "Dadui" 2 minutes and 33 seconds to fly out and a "ZhongDui" 33 seconds to fly out. There are 16 seconds between the takeoff of 2 consecutive "Zhongdui". Zhongdui means a medium team and Dadui means a large team. I'm not sure what is the size of large team and medium team. It takes large team 9 minutes to land and a medium team 1 minute 44 seconds to land.

Combat format, combat flights normally operate in 2 to 4 4-plane formation making a large team. When intercepting aerial targets, normally operate in a 4-plane formation. Going after ground targets, normally operates in 2-plane formation. The optimum distance between 2 2-plane formation is 1000 to 1500 m. The planes in the 2-plane formation are 110 m apart.

Flight speed - It flies fastest at 17 km altitude, flies at 2337 km/h = 646 m/s = mach 1.9. At 200 m altitutde, it flies at 1010 km/h = 280 m/s = mach 0.82. It does ground attack missions at speed of mach 0.57 to mach 0.71. It intercepts planes at mach 0.65 to mach 1.6.

Flight altitude - the maximum flight altitute is 18 km. In ground attack missions, when doing A2A combat, operates at 2000 to 4000 m. When cruising, operates at 800 to 3000 m. The maximum altitutude is 12 km. Ground attack planes returns at 1200 to 4500 m, maximum altittude is 9000 m. When actually doing ground attack, typical altitude is 700 to 1600 m. Leaving bombing mode, the altitude is normally 500 to 2100 m. When abandonning diving in attacks, the altitude is normally 350 to 400 m. It will rise to 1000 m+ to shrug off target.

Ground attacking normally operates at 500 to 1500 m, lowest is 200 m, highest is 3000 m. When attacking aerial targets, operating altitude is 3000 to 15000 m, lowest is 600 m.

When doing ground attack, a regiment normally sends out 1 large team, which is 8 plane (explains the first part I guess), Joins the combat navigation route when about 15 km from target. Typically dives down at 10 to 20 degrees to attack, sometimes 30 to 45 degree. Everytime, a single team can attack 2 to 4 times, maximum 6 times. A single plane can operate in the target area for 6 to 17 minutes. When firing off missiles at 500 m in altitude, at 900 km/h, the launch distance is over 50 km. At 6000 m in alttutde, the firing distance is over 100 km.

Interception of targe - Attack method - At medium to high altitude, it typically uses 90 and 180 degree turns to point toward the direction of attack or use 90 and 180 degree turns to shrug off tailing attacks. Altitude difference is typically around 800 to 2500 m, minimum is 200 m, largest is 5000 m. In low altutde, use a lot of tailing and attacking from high altitutde, altitude difference is 500 to 2000 m. Entering attack at angle of normally 10 to 30 degrees, minimum is 0 degree, maximum is 70 degrees.

Radar is turned on normally 45 to 80 km from target, maximum of over 100 km (there might be some lost in translation here). First detect the target in medium to high altitude at 75 to 90 km, maximum of 110 km. Tracks the target in medium to high altitude at 45 to 70 km, maximum 80 km. In low altitutde, this happens at 35 to 55 km. When attacking target in medium to high altitutde, enters into 2 attacks per encounter. The first attack happens at 40 to 65 km away, maximum range is 80 km. The second attack happens at 20 to 33 km, minimum 4 km. Attacks happen 3 to 8 km apart. low altituude encounters happens at 3 to 8 km. And then it talks about operating with clouds around.

13 comments:

Strategos said...

thx for your effort , just a question : can you also provide some insights on PLA land forces news , if possible. i know you are short of time

Feng said...

Unfortunately, I don't really research into that area. I've tried to get interested in it, but there is just too much stuff.

Jiang said...

Hi Feng, how good is J-8H compare to JF-17 in terms of BVR?? Which is better??

bigdaddy said...

answer: they are both crappy museum pieces.

Feng said...

a better question would be J-8F vs JF-17. F is supposed to be the best J-8II A2A variant. I think the word is that J-8F has better TWR, supersonic performance and probably would be stronger in BVR. JF-17 would be stronger in WVR.

Jiang said...

BigDaddy, since you are soooo FAT!!! Don't you think it is time for you to lose some weight??? Don't you know that chicks don't like FAT, Bold headed guys???

Jiang said...

Hi Feng, I want to talk to you regarding the artical I posted.
lol, I noticed that the person who wrote the artical is David Lague who only write SH&T about China, ever since China had successful Oylimpic, he is now DEAT SILENCE!!

Hi, Feng. It is nice to see you again. I saw you last time when you post something on PDF regarding WS-13A engine. I personally think we should give some but not all engine tech to Pakistan that way Pakistan can at least maintain it but we should use it as a leverage so Pak will buy more stuff from us, after all Pakistan is our best friend and Ally.

Feng, also I realize that you are not on BDF(Bhindian Defence fourm), I was there couple times and I got sick of it and I left and never went back, the indians absoultly hate us Chinese, they bash and insult every Chinese member every time when they got a chance to even though the Chinese are making good post and what is more FU*K up is that their MODs doese not give a SH&T about it!!

Anyway it is good to see you. I would like you to post something about S-400 systems and weather we need it or not. Thank you.

Feng said...

There is no point getting upset over these little things. Following PLAN is a joy for me and I don't see the point to let other people's comments run your life.

As for S-400, it's a continual upgrade over S-300PMU2. I like it, but I think they will just keep getting more HQ-9 battalions. It would be interesting to follow SOC's blog, he is uncovering all the new HQ-9 units.

duskylim said...

Dear Feng:

The F22 design for Pakistan is the latest (last?) incarnation of the Jiangwei (053H?) hull form.

From the bows up to the bridge superstructure it could be just another Jiangwei II frigate. The real difference is that the superstructure bares some resemblance to that of the newer 054A Jiangkai.

I am still very disappointed in the PLAN for not having developed a vertically-launched version of the HQ-7, and while I am picking nits, why did they go to a hot-launch system rather than stay with the cold-launch one they already developed.

Solid propellant missiles will always be hazardous to handle and in the event of a 'hard start' of the rocket motor a cold launched missile will be outside of the ship that launched it, a huge safety advantage.

The hangar-mounted Type 730 ciws does not seem to have on board sensors... nor any of the box missile launchers seen on the LD-2000 counterpart. Probably a cost-saving measure.

Forwards the fire-control radar are the latest models of the types found on the Jiangwei II's, also, we can see more advanced EW and ESW equipment on board.

Overall, given the special relationship between Pakistan and China, I still rate these ships a bargain for the Pak Navy.

Feng said...

thanks for your comments duskylim,

I absolutely agree with your comment that F-22P drew inspiration from the 054A hull.

As for HH-7, I always felt that they need to develop a more compact version of a VLS version of it. I think they will and we will see it in the future, but give it a little time.

The 30 mm for the F-22P have all of their sensors on the hangar. I'm not sure about the cost-saving part for not having missiles, because other advanced CIWS like phalanx and goalkeeper do not either. And it seems that CIWS is moving toward strictly gun like the 57 mm and oto-melera 76 mm we saw for the USN competition. I'm not sure if China will develop its own 57 mm, although it seems more likely to improve on 76 mm and the 30 mm.

As for the sensors on F-22P, they seem to be the latest that they are advertising in those defense shows and more advanced than the ones found on Jiangwei II. Especially will regard to the sensors for the 30 mm.

duskylim said...

Great Web page Feng,

I salute your dedication.

Question, the holes in the bridge of the new 054x seem to be cut out by a welding torch, they have burn and scorch marks typical of a cutting torch. Are they the final form (which I very much doubt) or rather just relief holes or precursors to the final form?

In the picture where the 054A is pasted alongside the new one, we can see one clear difference. Whereas in the old 054A the bows curve in a graceful arc towards the forecastle and superstructure, on this new vessel the upper portion of the bows seem to have been sloped inwards (a radar-signature reduction feature?).

You are definitely right about the platform on the bridge, it is lower than the previous 054A. It also seems that the bow sonar dome is approximately the same size... another medium frequency sonar?

What is clear is that as more shipyard resources become available, the Chinese Navy's plans for its surface fleet are becoming clearer - they are not getting any more new destroyers - YET! But they are steadily developing a very capable (and much cheaper) general purpose frigate design.

Lastly, have you seen the post about this new frigate in Sinodefence? Well there is speculation as to the role of a cylindrical blue object being installed when it just seems to me to be the mounting of the forward AK-176 gun.

duskylim said...

Great Web page Feng,

I salute your dedication.

Question, the holes in the bridge of the new 054x seem to be cut out by a welding torch, they have burn and scorch marks typical of a cutting torch. Are they the final form (which I very much doubt) or rather just relief holes or precursors to the final form?

In the picture where the 054A is pasted alongside the new one, we can see one clear difference. Whereas in the old 054A the bows curve in a graceful arc towards the forecastle and superstructure, on this new vessel the upper portion of the bows seem to have been sloped inwards (a radar-signature reduction feature?).

You are definitely right about the platform on the bridge, it is lower than the previous 054A. It also seems that the bow sonar dome is approximately the same size... another medium frequency sonar?

What is clear is that as more shipyard resources become available, the Chinese Navy's plans for its surface fleet are becoming clearer - they are not getting any more new destroyers - YET! But they are steadily developing a very capable (and much cheaper) general purpose frigate design.

Lastly, have you seen the post about this new frigate in Sinodefence? Well there is speculation as to the role of a cylindrical blue object being installed when it just seems to me to be the mounting of the forward AK-176 gun.

Feng said...

Hey Duskylim,

Thanks for your compliment. I'm trying to post a new article anytime something dramatic changes or whenever it's been a while. I generally agree with your observations. The thing about destroyers is that they probably have started building them already, we just haven't seen them in clear form yet.