Thursday, June 25, 2009

Project 17A of Indian Navy

I read this piece of news a few days ago and found it shocking. Here is the article:

India has cleared its largest ever indigenous defence contract worth Rs 45,000 crore to manufacture seven advanced stealth frigates for the Navy at shipyards in Kolkata and Mumbai.

The P17A warship project, which will be India’s most advanced and stealthy frigates, has been cleared by the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) on Friday.

Sources said that brushing aside a request by the Navy that two of the indigenously designed frigates may be manufactured abroad, the DAC has decided that all seven warships will be manufactured in India by the Mazagon Dock Limited, Mumbai (MDL) and the Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers (GRSE), Kolkata.

The Defence Ministry has allocated a budget of Rs 45,000 crore for the project and the work will be divided between the two shipyards. The P17A frigates will be even more advanced than the P17 Shivalik class warships that are currently being inducted by the Navy.


For those keeping scores at home, it's around $10 billion for 7 ships or around $1.4 billion per ship. This is an increase over the original announcement in 2006 that put the price tag of each ship at around $900 million. I think India has had some experiences recently with cost escalations in naval projects. They want to make sure to allocate all the necessary funding, so that it does not have cost overrun this time.

To put this into perspective:
A 054A costs around $200-250 million depending on the conversion rate.
I think Singapore paid $1 billion for 6 Formidable class ships back in early 2000s, although that only includes the ToT, weapon systems and the first unit.
The first batch of Talwar cost $1 billion for 3
The second batch of Talwar cost $1.6 billion for 3 (although a lot of that is due to USD depreciation)
The Project 17 Shivalik class apparently costs $650 million each
The most recent order of 4 FREMM class by Italy cost 1.4 billion EUR -> 350 million EUR per or about 500 million USD depending on the conversion we use.
The entire horizon class program cost around $4 billion for 4 ships
KDX-3 is around $900 million
The 6 Type-45 destroyers cost UK 6.46 billion pound, which is anywhere from 8 to 10 billion USD depending on the conversion rate.

It looks like the going rate for a modern stealthy frigate with medium range air defense and good ASW capabilities is around $500 million. The going rate for a larger AAW ship with area defense is around $1 to 1.5 billion.

With the price that India is willing to pay for these 7 ships, it should turn out to be a very capable ship. If you look at the specifications of Shivalik class, its weapon and sensor fit is similar to your average modern frigate like the La Fayette derivatives, Talwar and 054A. $650 million looks to be more than what the other countries paid for comparable frigates, but I think part of the cost goes toward improving Indian shipyard to be able to handle such projects in the future. With more than double the cost, Project 17A looks like it will be a whole different beast. Just looking at the price tag alone, it looks to be an AAW ship with long range SAM and Aegis like combat system. On the other hand, I kept reading Indian sources that said this ship will only be around 5600 ton in displacement. That would make sense because larger Project 17A class would intrude in the territories of Project 15A, which is in the 7000 ton range. Even now, it seems that Project 15A is really not that relevant when the smaller Project 17A might turn out to do the same job much better. So, I think it would be interesting to see what Project 17A turn out to be. If it turns out to be like Horizon class or AAW version of FREMM, it would be well worth the money after we factor in higher than projected inflation, cost of upgrading the shipyards, transfer of technology and such. However, if it turns out to just be a more powerful version of Project 17, I think they are really paying far too much for these ships.

63 comments:

ABHINABA said...

Traditionally all Indian projects are hit by lacking of good management,time delays & cost overruns.

Jiang said...

I think the cost is so high mainly due to the fact that india can not make most of the parts by themselves. They have to spend a lot of money buying parts for it. Unlike China which can produce all parts for 054A and it will be just as capable as the Shivalik class frigates.

If you look at Arjun tank you will know what I mean. India has to buy fire control system from Isreal, engine and 120mm main gun from Germany, armor from US and other stuff. Which drive the Arjun tank 's cost to almost 4 million USD each!!!! And Arjun is not even as good as T-90.

Eric Z said...

Feng, do you expect a long range SAM on the Project 17A? (i.e.: around 70km or higher)

Would that make it superior to the 054A?

Feng said...

Well, I thought that with more than doubling cost from Shivalik class, they'd have to be using long range SAMs. Especially when you build 7 units, the cost should come down a little bit as you build more. I don't know what the configuration would be, maybe 32 cells, maybe 48, but I'd think it would have to use long range Barak or possibly Aster 30.

hbogyt said...

Feng, what do you think about the rumour of a state publication saying that the "JL-21A" was launched from "3 different" submarines, and hit the target with a SEP of 15m, in 2001?

Is JL-2 deployed or not.

indavao said...

hi.. just dropping by here... have a nice day! http://kantahanan.blogspot.com

Feng said...

It's possible, I remember reading that article and didn't think that part was completely baseless. I was under the impression it was talking about JL-1 if I'm not mistaking. It's certainly not out of the realm of possibiity that they could get it to accurate to 15 m cep if they applied whatever technology they used for ASBM.

Jiang said...

Feng, what is the main purporse of J-8?? I think it should just retire. Build more JF-17s, this way it will be good advaertisement for JF-17 as well.

As for Su-30MKK. What do you think its fate will be?? I think PLAF will retire them by 2020.

Koh said...

Feng how about some news regarding the fifth generation stealth fighters and bombers. Hope to learn more of these from you or anyone with informations on these.
Jiang how about you can you throw some lights on this subject. Though you are young I am very confident you do know something. Care to share them with us.

Jiang said...

Koh, China is indeed developing 5th Generation stealth fighter compareble to F-22 Supposely, but I think it will be just on par with JSF (F-35), because no one in the World beside the USA has ever made a stealth fighter before. So it will be too difficult to run before you can walk. China no is spending lots of money on it, and I can see the signs of it. The stealth fighter might be out in 2011 or 2012, and delpoy in 2014. This will be GREAT because it will netualize the threat caused by JSF, even Japan, Korea and USA mass deploy JSF it will no longer be a treat, but we still need to watch out for F-22, because by then F-22 will get substantial upgrades.

As for stealth bomber. I see no such thing going on, because there is no such great need for China to get such bomber. Personally I think China should get more advanced missiles than bombers, also China now lacks the capability to build a B-2 like bomber because it is too complex. But China is certainly on her way to developing something like TU-160 which is in the same class as B-1B lancer. If China can possese something B1-B lancer, it will be trenmendous capability.

Jiang said...

Sorry a typo: "China no is spending lots of money on it, and I can see the signs of it."

I mean: "China NOW is spending lots of money on it, and I can see the signs of it."

Koh said...

Jiang
Thanks for the info. How about the development of H8 Stealth bomber which I understand was successfully flight tested somewhere last year and was said to be even better that B-2. Can you throw some light on this. I believe this bomber can temendously increase China's ability to deter the american by threatening their bases especially Guam thereby curtailing their propensity for interferring and making mischieve in other country's internal affair in this case China.

Feng said...

J-8F still serves a purpose in plaaf, don't underestimate it's value. It can still be useful against the Taiwanese 4th gen planes if used properly.

Jiang said...

Feng, I still do not like J-8 that much. I think JF-17 can do everything J-8 can do and it will also be great advertizement for it.

Koh, I really have no idea about H-8. I think it will be impossible for China to develope something better than the B-2. Look, China still needs to produce something like JSF or at least F-117 first before it can come up with something like B-2, it is like you got to learn how to lay up before you can dunk.

However, I do believe that China is ahead of the ranting russians interms of developing 5th generation stealth fighters. The russians embaraced themselves when their "Super advanced fither SU-47" got cancled. Put it this way, russia right now simplly lack the money, experience, and human resouce to build stealth fither on its own. The best they can do is keep upgrading SU-27 then give it some ridiculus name like Su-30, SU-33, Su-34, Su-35, Su-37 blah blah blah. That is why the russians invited Chinese twice once in 2004 then in 2007 to jonit develope 5th generation stealth fighter but China refused because even China lacks the experience however she has far more money to do it on her own.

Koh said...

Jiang
The Russian is not developing their systems as fast as before because they lack finance and they sell soddy and unreliable products.
I am particularly interested in China's progress in its ability to stand up to america and will not be bullied ever again by them. As I said before I am nearing my 70 and may not live to see that day. Thus my interest.
Feng how about you? Do you know anything on this subject. Do enlighten this old man.

Jiang said...

Wow I never thought you are that old. Anyway, right now America is in a Sh!tHole, she is hurt and she needs China to pull her out. But China knows that this is a golden oppertunity.

Look, America has been disrespecting and bullying China for decades. First they tried Tibet, it failed badly. Then they go after Taiwan, but now Taiwan is more interested in improving relationship with China. So America tries to surround China by pull Japan, South Korea, Gutter Rat Bhindia, and Taiwan together to block China, however, the Americans are fighting on too many fronts and now lacks the money, so their plans went shit.

I would say that in another 5 years, there will be no way America can ever control Chian again. You will see it.

Feng, I also want to talk about China's millitary budget, and nuke stockpile. China "Officially" says that it is 68 billion, but the west says that it is 140 billion. I aggree with the west on this one, because China's GDP is almost the second largest in the world now at 4.5 trillion which means if China spends 3.5% of the GDP like BHindia does, it will be a Massive157.5 billion SECOND largest in the world. As for the nuck stockpile, some says it is 400 nukes, some says it is 1500 nukes. I can only integentlly guess at around 900. Because there are 6 nuke boats each has 12 JL-2 which means 12*4*6=288 nukes and you have to count ICBMs which there are at least DF-31A and some other ICBMs so 60*5+80=380, also you have to consider JH-7A and H-6 which maybe acount for another 180 nukes at least. So the sum should be 850. This is just a conservative guess, there might be more advanced ICBM such as DF-41A out alread and possibly more nuke boats. Do you aggree Feng??

Jiang said...

BTW Koh, do you live in the US?? If so how long??

Koh said...

Jiang
I had once wrote about the various delicious Indian food which I am not sure are available in america. No Jiang I have never been to america and have no intention of going there. Whenever I travelled I head straight for China. Contrary to what I read in western news media China was and is not what they are trying to depict that is repressive, uncivilise and lacking in freedom.
I am from Singapore. Does that surprise you?
Feng I am still hoping you will write something about the subject now under discussion. Please oblige.

Feng said...

Jiang, you really need to behave yourself on these threads.

There is really no point boasting about Chinese defense budget or how many nukes they have. That's actually a huge negative. You don't want your country to spend all its money buying weapons.

West is not all perfect and China is not the evil dictatorship a lot of people envision, but China can still learn a lot from the west. Especially recently with the green dam software, that's just such a regulation and I don't even know how they came up with something like that. China cannot be the country that it wants to be until it really becomes more transparent toward its citizens. It has come a long way, but it needs to go a lot more. Think how much of a difference it would've made if China had reported SARS much earlier on or allowed a public debate and a selection process for a net nanny software rather than just shoved it down people's throats. The other thing is that it must not always feel this much need to be respected by everyone. It's really hard for people to feel friendly toward Chinese leaders when they are always so robotic.

Remember, just because America is getting worse in certain areas, that doesn't mean China doesn't have a lot of problems and need improvement.

Jiang said...

Cool Singapore, I heard there are many Chinese there. That does suprise me a bit, because Singapore is always pro-west and anti-China. I am not sure that is the case though.

Feng, you also need to be more UNITED. Look, the Bhangees know their Sh!thole Bhindia sucks yet they never talk bad things about their country infrount of others, you should learn that too. See even bhindians have got something we can learn!

As for the budget and amount of nukes. I am just very interested in this subject and like to disscuss about it that's all. I have done quite some study on these two subject, so I think I know quite a bit and see if you agree. Chinese leader are not always robotic, the reason they do that most of the time is because you can not tell what is in their mind!! Remember Sun Zi say: " Know yourself and you enemy you will win 100 out of 100 battles." The more we know about our potential competitors and enemeies the better, and the few the know about us the better. Chinese to leaders may not be as "fake" and "sweet" as the western top leaders but they are a lot more efficient!!

Jiang said...

As for China's problem. The BIGGEST problem is ofcourse the huge population, we have 1.4 billion brothers and sisters, yet we are not the largest country by land mass( China rank 3rd largest in land mass ). Also we do not have enough resources to develope the populaton interms of oil, and minerals. So the best solution is to spread the popoulation evenly.

In places like XinJian, Tebit, and Mongolia there are lots of land yet few people. So it is vital that we develope our inland area, make those area just as good interms of transporation, euducaion, and public serverce as the East coast area.

The other problem I see is forein AGGRESSION!! Look, country like Japan, USA, especially Gutter Rat Bhindia all have hate and aggression attitude toward China, they are unsure what a Powerfull China will do to them, so instead of hoping positively, they hope negatively ore even the worst case. Thus they will try everything to keep us down.

There is only one solution and that is to ARM UP!! Build up millitary and make sure you are ready to fight and any time!! Look, do you think the Nazis are willing to make peace with Russia?? The Russians made the BIGGEST mistake of their history by not getting ready to fighter, and they lost 20 millions people and eventually the Cold war as well. Now Russia has no hope of reuniting with Ukrain, and former Sovit State. If we Chinese do not ARM UP, do you think we can stop another BLOODY weastern invision in the 19 century, where we lost so much land and people and when we got to WWII we had no strength of fighting the Japs and what did they do?? Do you wish to see the same thing happen again??

Or you think the Western countries are so civilized that they will not do the same thing to China, and here we have Iraq!!

Koh said...

Feng
All Jiang wanted was a dliscussion with you so it is rather inappropriate of you to put him down. I would agree with you if you say let not discuss the budget or the number of nukes rather we let the west speculate on it. Jiang is young and what we called hot blood and rather impetuous that is why I advised him once to stay cool, very very cool. I would now add patience. He is a very patriotic guy and if he stay cool, patient and focus I believe he can go far and on his stated intention he can achieves much.
Jiang I hope you will not feel offended as I say what I said with good intention.

Koh said...

Jiang
I do not know how you come to this conclusion. Singaporean are pro China but we must keep a low profile and it will be clear to you if you realize where the little red dot (that is what they called us) is situated. The regions around us is jealous of our success and wealth and often derisively refer us as little China. Our leaders are on the best of terms and now those regional leaders who derisively make fun of us are now running to China to foster closer relation. Those who laugh last laugh best.

Koh said...

Feng
I abhor war and weapons of destruction. China does not blindly spend on unnecessary arms acquisitions like India. China only seek weapons to give them a credible deterrent to american's vast superiority which China know it cannot matched. america is a merciless, warlike and arrogant nation which even friends and allies have to be wary of. If China has to spend money to achieve this aim then so be it and China must do it if they do not want to be bullied. There is no two ways about it.
To give you a clear picture why this is so I will tell you exactly what I told a young Singaporean (in his late twenties) a few year back during a tour in NZ. In our group of tourists we have one young woman whose husband was a young captian in the Army which prompted this guy to comment on why Singapore must spend so much on defence when we can ill afford it after all who are we going to fight with. I told him why it is necessary by giving a him a brief history of Singapore and its relationship with Malaysia. (he was not born then) I told him though we are small with limited resources LKY our then PM was very wise to have the forsight to build up the armed forces from scratch. The very man (Dr Goh Keng Swee) chosen for this task is a Singaporean from Malaysia and he did a very good job of it considering Singapore was very poor then. He got the Israeli to help for a fraction of the cost the british was asking for. This does not go well with the countries in the region especially Malaysia. During those early day our neighbours from the north was always bashing and threatening us. Now they still occasionaly bash us but they do not threaten us just as america can no longer threaten to nuke China nor will it provoke China by sailing its battle group to Taiwan. Do you think this can happen if China do not make the effort.
Before we left NZ this young man approach me and said "Uncle I did not realise the danger and difficulties Singapore was in until you gave me a brief history of what the situation really was. I now realised that without the protection of our armed force we would not be enjoying life as we know it. The money spent on our armed forces is one of necessity and therefore not a waste" He realized that our armed forces is a must if we were to maintain our lifestyle which is the envy of the regions. The american were in the beginning hostile toward us and branded our LKY as a dictator. Now they say he is a wise stateman. Whatever it is it does not bother us as long as we are a free and happy country. Our armed forces in the early days was the butt of ridicule but now they are much respected. (Even the american and australian admitted as much) One Malaysian general grudgingly admitted that Singapore has a very strong and credible armed forces that can defeat Malaysia in an armed conflict. Singapore never boast of this. We let others sing our praise. This is precisely what China is doing. They build up the forces quietly threatening no one. The only nations that feel threaten is america and japan for obvious reasons. If you can recall Rumfield once made a cynical comment about China's increasing budget for defence asking why they need to do so when no one threaten them. Can you really believe this bloke. He conveniently left out the part on surrounding bases and alliances.
Feng perhaps now you know why I am keen to know how far China has progress in it effort to deter america. Though I am Singaporean and will always be Singaporean first my root is still Chinese and I will always be a Singaporean Chinese. Nothing can change that.
Eric you asked whether I am Chinese. I trust this answer your question.

Jiang said...

Koh, China needs to spend at least 3.5% of its GDP. Look, USA and RAT Bhindia all spends 3.5%. Do you know that Pakistan spends as high as 8% of its GDP to keep up its armed force so, Gutter Rat Bhingia can not attack her. Pakistani nukes are made just for mass destruction of India!!

We Chinese need to build at least 1000 Thermol Nuclear bombs, so that it will be sufficient enought to destory Russia, Japan, India, and USA combine. Do you understand why America never dare to bully Russia, the way they bully China. Because even Russia's GDP is only 1/4 of China's, but Russia has enough Nukes to destory USA at least 10 times and over!! China now can easiy make 1000 or even more nukes. Why not, Pakistan has 90 nukes and its stockpile is still increasing.

Second, China needs Air craft Carrier at least 5 Air craft carrier to protect her vital trade roote!!

Regarding Singapore, I really do not like that fact you guys have a rat Indian as your President. SUCKS!! This just proves that Chinese are simply too kind, we allowed the western countries to destory our culture and we learn their way of living. Yet at the end they still have no respect!! Do you know how bad the Asian MAN image is in the Free world!! There are countless amount of sterotypes and Sh!T about us being promoted by the media, and none for Asian women. Now you know how kind the White Men are!! (Feng how do you feel??) Look, they only way we can get out of this is China become truly selfaware, and start to respect its true culture not weastern ones. Just look at Hong Kong. I really do not know what they are now!!

Jiang said...

BTW, Koh. You must know the massicare of the Chinese in Indunissia in 1998 right?? It is really sad, that no one in the world cares except we Chinese. Yet we are so hopeless, we can not even rescure those poor fellas. If we had a strong millitary do you think this kind of SHIT will happen, like if we had 5 aircraft carriers. Yet our Chinese top leaders are SUCH Faggets, still have not realie how important Millitary is!! Oh yeah, the Americans do not give a SH!T, not at all. If it was jews being massicared the same way, what do you think the Americans will do?? This kind of things just completely WOKE me up and see the true UGLY face of America, the so called most justice and fair country in the world. It is bullshit, lies made up by the Americans so that young tallented people around the world world would come and work their ass off to feed fat lazy Americans!!

In 1998, when Americans bombed our embarrsy in Yogoslavia, what did our top leader do again?? Oh yeah, American's weapon is so advanced that there is no way they are going to target civilian building, but yes they did and they did it intensionally!! NOW Feng what do you have to say??

wong said...

hullo. have enjoyed reading your blog and felt that i should give some comments especially after reading Jiang's comments. I am a northern neighbour of Mr Koh and have been an air force officer in my youth. yes. I agree with Koh. For your information Jiang, we overseas chinese have contributed through the years from Sun Yat Sen's time to China. Away from that country, other races have always envied our success and discriminate against us but what can we do. We, overseas chinese are always chinese at heart and don't ever think that that will change.

Feng said...

Hopefully by talking about some of China's problem, someone will take notice and maybe these problems get fixed. Self reflection is important. If you pretend all is great and there is no problem, you don't solve any issues, you cause bigger problem in the long run.

Anyone that ever spend more than 1 month in China would know that there are a lot of issues right now that needs to be addressed like environmental degradation and gov't corruption. You know what? China is doing really well right now. And I can only hope it keeps on getting stronger as a nation. I know more than anyone else that the strength of your native country actually allows you to have greater respect out there. When I first moved to UK, I was discriminated heavily just because China was poor and weak. That just makes me want China to improve the right way even more.

And adding nukes, spending too much on military is not the way to go. It helps you win argument on military forums, but so what? How does that solve anything? Jiang, I want to show you that it's not a "penis" contest out there. Relax, why do you need to spend all day to say that you are better than India? No need for such insecurity. China is a great nation regardless of what certain envious people might say. And everyone knows this.

Koh said...

Jiang
I knew about the killing of Chinese in Indonesia and the discrimination in Malaysia. But we, as a little red dot, cannot interfer as it will only worsen the problem for our fellow Chinese. Wong knew about this as well. In Malaysia they tried to interfer with the Malay in Singapore until our Malay told them off by pointing to them that they are much better off than them.
Our Indian President is a true Singaporean and does not have the same kind of mentality as those of India just as our Malay mentioned above.
Don't loose heart Jiang. It is only a matter of time, if the Chinese Leaderships govern wisely, China will catch up with the west. Regretfully I may not be around to witness it.
Jiang don't harbour too much hatred for those people. It is not worth it. Hatred will eat into your heart and it would cloud your judgement. We Chinese cannot die just because they wish us to. Look at the Chinese in Malaysia. The bright ones are denied the right to study in their own country but they overcome this setback by coming to Singapore and we welcome them for in return they help Singapore to prosper. Many of our able leaders are from Malaysia. Malaysia can produce a lot of half baked Malay graduates who cannot write proper English. In Singapore many of the Malay and Indian can speak Mandarin and some even dialects. Our success is based not on race but merits. Our policy is all are equal under the sun and when our government help the poor they are race blind. Ask Wong about it perhaps he will confirm this.

Koh said...

Feng
Obviously you missed out the point when I said China has to spend the same way Singapore did if she want to throw off the perpectual american's threat. Surely you are not so naive as to believe the american's "Freedom & Democracy" slogan and that they will leave China in peace. Without a strong armed forces to deter aggression no country can live and prosper in peace. I hope you have not missed out the message I am trying to put across in my last posting i.e to defend ourselves we must spend and that is that. Unless China do that China will not be able to solve its many problems without external interference especially from america which has a large propensity for creating troubles for it is most infamous. To be able to solve it many problems China must deter the west by being strong. China is not warlike as the american like to portray. Let face it China must do what it must do to achieve the means to govern its people without interference.

Feng said...

I'm not into the entire debate about the virtuals of democracy and all that. My thoughts toward military spending comes from my economic views. America is in the state that it is in right now because it spends too much money on its military, tries to interfere with every country around the world. It ends up in huge debt, terrible economy and depreciating economic power. What made America strong in the first place was small gov't, limited gov't power and minding its own business. What will lead to America's downfall is this path toward socialism, ideological wars and interfering with everyone. That gets you financially broken and hated around the world.

And similarly, you see China becoming the nation it is because it is embracing the idea of small gov't, giving competitive environment to its businesses, giving incentive to create strong domestic industry. Only with that, did it become as rich and influential as it is right now. China may not have the strongest military in the world, but nobody dares to mess with it. Why? Because they need China's money. Power goes to where money is. That's the importance of the lesson from our history. Military power is a result of economic strength, not the other way around. Look what happened when Soviet Union spent so much on its military, it went broke. The same thing will happen to America if it continues this large military complex ideology. What is happening in China is that the economic strength and large market has forced other world leading multi-nationals to invest and transfer their technology to China. They are forced to show China how to develop more advanced technology/produce and manage their business properly to ensure quality and efficiency. The recent military advances in China is caused by improvement in its civilian sectors. That's why you see the navy improve so much faster than the air force. When you can produce a innovative and competitive civilian manufacturing sector, you will be able to use that to develop advanced military product + have efficient production of this weapons. You see with the weakness in US shipbuilding industry, they can spend 5 to 10 times the money that China spends (which they probably do) and still feel that its loosing ground and edge to Chinese navy.

If there is one thing I commend Deng for doing, it would be for reducing the military budget and spending more money developing the economy even facing the Soviet threat. He might not have realized it, but spending less money in the short run ended up leading to greater improvement in the military in the long run. They ended buying all the technology they need from the Russians for really because the Russians didn't get it.

Jiang said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Jiang said...

Guys I just visited PDF. I saw an interesting artical regarding Gutter Rat Bhangee Bhindian army sending 60,000 rats to the border. Yet they been called "Paper Tiger" by the Chinese. Many rats indians on PDF feel offended and started arguing, and everyone of our Pakistani brothers came out and stood by our side and Fight the rats!!! What a site. You people can visitie this site here:

http://forum.pakistanidefence.com/index.php?showtopic=83352&st=0

Jiang said...

Also, Koh. Do you know that Malaysia is buying SU-30MKM and even F-18E/F. How do Singapore counter this??

Look, Singapore is so small, it can not endure any strikes like Malaysia could.

Koh said...

Jiang
It is not how Singapore will respond but whether it is necessary to respond. The planes that they acquired (which, since they can ill afford it, they barter trade with Russia and in that way how many can they barter trade for) are not comparable to the latest F16 that Singapore already have. Another example, they had not so long ago made a huge purchase of Soviet main battle tanks (not the latest model - T.72 I think) from a Eastern European country. This does not bother us. We already have a very effective answer to that in the form of Apache Attack Helicopter. You see Jiang it is how intelligent one utilise their money to maximise the full benefit of acquiring effective weapons without overstretching their ability to pay. Again the maintenance and training required to keep the equipments in tip top condition and the ability to utilise them effectively that counts. This will be a crucial deciding factor to the outcome should conflict starts and these also cost money and is not cheap. You can bet your last dime that if they ever attain the capacity to be stronger than us they will start bullying and threatening us. As it is they still find faults with us. For instant when we reclaimed land in our own territory they want us to stop making absurd claim that it cause flooding in of all places Kota Tinggi (The word Tinggi in Malay means high land or hill) somewhere deep in Johore. Only when a Orang Puteh (white man) visiting Malaysia ridiculed such claim did they stopped. This orang puteh pointed out that Penggeran which is low land just opposite Singapore is unaffected. They will bash us any way they can even if the reason is ridiculous or extremely stupid. What can you expect when even their Internal Affair Minister issued an order of arrest to a innocent Chinese woman under ISA (Internal Security Act) and put her away in solitary confinement under extreme duress/stress. Only when the public make an outcry was the woman released and with the claim that it was for the woman's safety. To be detained under the act mean a person can be detained for upto two years (More if need be) without trial under extreme stressful condlition. The last I heard the woman wanted to take legal action but that will be most difficult and so far nothing came of it. (even Malaysian have no confidence or trust in their jucicial system which thoroughly corrupted)

Koh said...

Jiang
Don't forget that the Singapore Armed Forces were trained by Isreal during its formative years. Also we learned and adopt various countries (Especially the Swiss' policy of total defence that is every able citizens is a soldier) defence policies. I ommited F18E/F
for the reason stated earlier. We maybe a little red dot but it is a mighty damned fiery red dot not easy to swallow. Thus China must also be likewise so that america will find it too hot to handle.

Jiang said...

With all due respect, Koh. It seems that Singapore is just too small for any type of groud fighting. If the Malysian develope Missiles like DF-21C maybe in another 30 years of so (lol).

How would Singapore protect herselft from missiles and artillary strikes?? Even WS-2 rockets can hit Singiapore. Your only responce is to use Patriot missile or S-300. But rockets are a lot cheaper than missiles. But in the end, Singapore will start heavy counter attack, and whop Malaysia.

BTW, Koh. Have you heard the recent violence in XinJiang. Fucking XinJiang Muslim shit attack Han and other minority groups reall angered me!! Are Malaysians shit Muslims as well??

Just remember that whenever there are Mulsim filth, there will be violence!!

Koh said...

Jiang Malaysia and Indonesia are ruled by Malay Muslim and from the various inputs in my postings I think you are able to get the pictures and I need not have to say more.
Judging from the way they go about doing things and their weak economy (they are very corrupt from the head down) it will take a long time. Their ability to develop missile or any weapon system is zero. How can they when all their Universaties are filled with Malay studying Religious Studies. Now I understand they have other courses but their refusal to use English as a medium of instruction is their main drawback. The day they begin to use their pea size brain will be the day we should be worried but by then I'll be gone. Still as long as we have capable leaders we should be able to counter them. Do you know we manufacture some of our weapons and they when tested by western expert prove to very good. They did try to test us once over the lssue of railway land, the railway station and immigration check. (land given to them by the british-you know the british are famous for giving away lands and countries which they have no right and creating a lot of problems. Look at Kashmir, India, Pakistan and Arunachal Pradesh to name only a few) In the end they back down when our government responded by placing our armed forces on high alert near the border (they knew that we were prepared for any eventuality including crossing over and take over Johore.
Yes I heard of the riot in XinJian and was much sadden by it. I suspect the american through cia has a hand in it. BTW I read somewhere that the problem in Tibet were actually originally caused by the brtish, indian and later by the american. I understand the Dalia Lama was and still is funded by the cia to cause trouble. Is this true?

Jiang said...

Koh, Dalima is old now 72 close to his end. He is so funny now. He says that after his death Tibietns in india will electe a new Dalima. But we all know that real Dalima are found in Tibet only after the life reconation. So it pure political BullSh!t now. However, I have heard many news say that if the new Dalima is being elected, people in Tibit will no trust him anymore, because people know it will be just Political BS!!

As for Malaysia. I have heard that Muslims there are so DUMB like Chimps. Koh you must know that in Malysia, Chinese only made up for 1.5% of the people yet we control 80% of the economy, and so does in Indonesia!! Their IQ is so low that they will never be able to catch up!! NEVER.

Koh, do you really think that most Singaporens are on China's side?? I have heard many negative things from Singapore media says very bad things even BullSh!t about China. Also, I heard many young people in Singapore do not consider themselves Chinese at all now, they think it is ashamed to be associated with China. Is that true??

Koh said...

Jiang
In Indonesia the Chinese population is very small but Malaysia has a much larger one.
To give you a clearer picture I will use myself as an example.
I was born during the british colonial period. At that time the british were the master being the ruler and in school our medium of instruction was English. There were Chinese Vernacular schools as well where only Chinese was taught. Thus I was brought up learning English. I am what they called a Peranakan, a Baba, who spoke a kind of Malay pepper with Chinese dialect here and there. I can speak Malay when I was a young boy but has difficult speaking the lingo now through lack of practice (over 50 yrs I stop speaking it) though I still understand the lingo. I can't speak Chinese. I learn to speak Teochew through my wife after marriage. Unfortunately I can't speak Mandarin as I found it difficult to learn even though I tried hard. (I suffer from severe profound loss of hearing i.e I am almost deaf since childhood) With this background I am, as I said earlier, most and foremost a Singaporean who recognised my root of origin as Chinese therefore I am a Singaporean Chinese. When I travelled I travel mostly to China.
In Singapore nowaday the vast majority can converse in Mandarin. In Malaysia most Chinese study in Chinese Vernacular school and therefore very good at Mandarin. This is so because as I said they were denied the right to education and the few admitted to government schools has Malay as the medium of instruction which the Chinese are not happy with. To solve this problem many send their children to Singapore where they are taught in English and Chinese. (No point learning Malay and religious knowledge. You can't progress in the world or earn a living unless you are a Malay then that is not a problem as their civil services are filled with them. Even so they do have a problem now as it is now satuarated and they discovered these people can't read or write English or Mandarin and no private sector will employ them.
From all this can you believe the news medias. If Singapore is anti-China why must we make learning and speaking Mandarin a must. In every society there will always be crackpots. In Taiwan they have Chen Sui Beng who claimed he is not Chinese (If so he is what - a Chimp.) They also have a pro-japanese called Lee Teng Hui who loves to see China split up into many countries. There are many like them in Taiwan but do all these make Taiwan any less Chinese.
BTW when I was in Beijin a couple of years back I found the people love to have western names. It is a shocking discovery. Some males even have female names like Alice, Judy, Irene and so on. In Singapore if you called a man by any of these name they will feel insulted and if they are of a bigger size they will beat you up.
We ridicule those AH KUAH (effeminate male) by giving them female name. Why can't they be proud of their Chinese name. By having western names in no way make them one. I find this disgusting and a affront to Chinese as a whole.

Jiang said...

Koh, I am a true Chinese living in USA, California, and I do not have an English name. My name is Jiang Shulin, and I tell everyone to call me Jiang or Shulin.

Koh, it really sucks that every of these so called "Chinese American" have English name, Indians here all keep their own name like Pavan, Patel, Gupta... and so on!! Yet these fucking Chinks do not. I do not know what is wrong with them!! It is really sad that in America, Chinese are the least united people that always getting fucked in both personal and proffessional lives and yet they do not even dare to fight back!! SO SAD!! Chiese in Beijin and ShiangHi, and HongKong are the worst!! All have English name so that them can lick White Man's ass!!

But I will promise to all my real Chinese brothers and sisters that I will never have an English name because I am what I am. Koh, you should encourage your countrymen to do the same!! Look, if you are really young and courage, I strongly encourage you not to marry Chinese women anymore, I now days find Chinese women so pro-west, always all weddings in China are western style. I will Marry Non-Chinese women and have traditionally Chinese style weddings. I promise.

Koh said...

Jiang
It is indeed sad especially if young healthy males started giving themselves female names. When I was in Yunnan this tour guide called himself Hoffman. That is the first time I heard a Chinese having such a ridiculous name . Disgusting. Jiang you are wrong that Indians don't have western names. They do have and they are what we called WOG - Western Oriented Gentleman. Believe me this kind of WOG can be very overbearing, obnoxious and irritating. Another thing Jiang never refer to Chinese as Chinks. That is the westerners way of insulting.ridiculing and degrading us. Don't insult the Chinese for them. Promise you won't do it again.
Jiang we have been using Feng's sites for our postings and I think it is unfair to him. Is there any way we can continue our exchange of ideas and informations.
Feng you do write some lovely articles which I enjoy reading. Keep it up and thanks for patiently allowing us to use your sites

Type99 said...

I apologise for being off topic

Its ironic, that Chinese dont want to integerate in Malaysia and Indonesia. The weegurs have been accused of not integrating with Chinese majority.

Maybe some Chinese should not preach double standards. And calling Malaysians "dumb as chimps" is racist and untrue. Its a shame some people like to practise hyprocracy and then justify it.

P.S I am nor Malaysia, Indonesian, Weegur. I am Kashmiri, I come with this message, if some Chinese people become arrogent and dont listen to their leaderships plea for "modesty" or worse Chinese gov becomes arrogent then you will suffer humiliation regularly.

Jiang said...

Oh yeah. That is why your people attack india and embarracing india all the time??

Who the hell do you think you are, accuring us for not intergraging. I am Chinese and I have intergrated with the American society, I speak fluent English and learned the culture, but the XinJiang also did the same and most of them are living fine just some outsiders living in the US and Europe who wants to stir up the pot. Now FU$K off!! You peace of crap, I can see why you come here, just another Bhindi who pretend to be something else!!

Koh said...

Type99 before you post any comments
let me give you this advice. Check your facts first and ensure they are correct then when you made your comments you must be able to substantiate it. You said you are a Kashmiri and Kashmir is a long way off from S.E.Asia. I am from this region and I can tell you that the Chinese in Indonesia and Thailand have Indonesian and Thai names. Even in the Philipine they have Philipino name. So what are your basis for saying that the Chinese do not wish to integrate or they are arrogant. Tell me frankly do you really know what you are writing about or just parroting those "Racist" provocation. Oh I get it a muslim defending a muslim. Right or Wrong it does not matter you must utter nonsense just so you can be heard or seen to be heard. Another Teja. Typical of your type.

Type99 said...

Damn, you guys got angry. I could swear back but I wont. What I said was saying my opinion. Oh yea I forgot silly me, Internet is full of "gangsters". You two are insecure as Indians, which I am not. Learn some geography, kashmir is divided. I have spoken to Chinese in Malaysia in UK. He called Malayians "lazy and dumb" he was a great guy but he had some stereotypes or Malayians. Plus Jiang comment on "IQ of Malayians and Indonesians" does not help because they could be reading this blog and this will reinforce divisions.

Type99 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Type99 said...

I know Malayisans are not innocent too e.g Affirmitive action controversy. Lastly, I know Chinese our more prosperous then their counterparts in Malaysia and Indonesia but does it mean you can belittle them or vice versa. Would it be ok for Chinese living in urban areas to laugth at chinese from the countryside. Or a educated one laughting at a poorer one.

Koh said...

Type99 you are really pathetic. Have you really read all the postings and trully understand what were written. You admitted that the Malaysian themselves have a low opinion of the Malay themselves. To prove a point I would refer you to one of my postings which said that they (Including many senior Government Officials and MPs) blamed the flooding in Kota Tinggi, somewhere in the middle of Johore which is very far from Singapore, on Singapore. Worst still all their comments were published all over the press. I repeat "Tinggi" in Malay means "High" therefore Kota Tinggi means a town on high ground. They only stopped when a CAUCASIAN TOURIST pointed out to them that Penggaren just opposite Singapore which is a low lying area was not flooded. There are many more of these stupidities but sufficed I quote this particular case. Needless to say the Malaysian (including the Malay) themselves are aware of the stupidity of their leaders. So stop perpetuating untruth when you really knew the truth. By doing so you are making yourself out as a HYPOCRITE. Have you read my posting on 1 Indian, 2 Indians and 3 or more Indians related to me by my old English Teacher. (A wise and honorable old Hindu Indian) Read it for I think it fits your description to a T.
You need not have to teach us geograhy or history. We know your homeland is a divided country caused by the british and we also know that you are frustrated over this. Don't blame us blame the british and your leaders. BTW western oriented gentleman or WOG was a derisive description of certain categories of the sub-continent natives given by the british. Moreover my response to your posting was an advice to you to know your facts first before making comments and to correct some misconceptions on your part. No where was I abusive in my language or had I acted like a gangster neither had I indicated that I was anti Indian or that I was angry. Hope your imagination is not running wild or perhaps your comprehension of the English language leave much to be desired. Be prepared to be ridiculed if you persist in writing nonsense over something you really have scant knowledge or proper understanding. It is blessed to be intelligent but it comes with a responsiblity to use it wisely and not to spurt nonsense and to perpetuate untruth. Are you really Intelligent? From what you wrote you appear more of a rambling fool.

Koh said...

Type99 You are pathetic because you chose to reopen a discussion that was closed by my last posting on 9.7.09 with your irrelevant unsubstantiated comments. Moreover you contradicted your own comments by your next posting as though you do not know what you are writing about and in that way you are a rambling fool.
Nowhere in our blogs do we preach double standard. What we wrote are factual and some are reflected in the Malaysian News.
I will make this short. Find out why Malaysia with its vast resources and oil has a much smaller monetary reserves than Singapore. Find out where all the money went. Its ex pm is currently mockingly taunting the government with this question which he knew best as he was the actual culprit. Find out how come the ringgit is worth 2.44 to a Sing Dollar. How come it was so difficult for a Malay graduate to find job in the private sectors. Find out all these and many more and when you know the answers then I can say you are qualified to join our discussion. Don't come when you know nothing.

Jiang said...

Type-99, why do you name yourself after our tank?? Also, you are acting weird. You say you are from Karismir right.

Koh, stop fighting with him. I know that Pakistanis, Karismirs and Bhindis all beheior similarly becaue they have inferiorty complex.

Type-99, please stop arguing. If you do want to argue, be rational not emotional.

Koh said...

Jiang
Teja if I am not mistaken is a failed engine developed by India. It therefore follow that a Khasmiri must name himself after something in this case China T99 Tank because he think he is better than the Indian. He claim that he is Khasmiri and not Indian but he never indicate from which part. If he is from Indian Khasmir then he is Indian whether he like it or not. Anyway he will have to answer the questions I posed to him if he want to reply which I doubt he can for facts are facts and you can't hide it. To reply by avoiding my questions mean he got no answers and therefore lacking in intelligence and can be ignored. I can't tolerate fool especially the brainless one.
Jiang the british ridicule them by calling them wog because they tried to act and behave like an orang puteh (white man) and pepper their speech here and there with English words. They think it is cool and are very proud of it not realising they are making a fool of themselves. (I suspect they are brain dead like those mindless Chinese who gave themselves ridiculous names)
It is my intention to stop until that idiot make me write again. I tried to be civil to him and look what he accused me of. Thus my contention that his comprehension of the English Language is low.

Jiang said...

I like your attitude, you are from there thus you are what you are. LOL.

I think most people from Kasimir view themselves as neither Pakistanis or just Kasimir, not Indian. But that is political stuff, so I do not want to common too much on it.

Koh said...

Jiang
I know the Kashmiri does not want to be Indian or Pakistani. T.99 indicated as much. Unfortunately Kashmir was divided and handed over to these countries by the british. Why I said that T.99 is either Indian or Pakistani depending on which divided part he hailed from was to tell him that his claim to be a Kashmiri is very STEREOTYPED and depended on whether people accept it. For instance we know India has a large force stationed there to impose their will and subject the population to great brutalities, humilation, rapes and so. If we are weird and have a warp mind like him we can distort the truth and always say India is within it rights to do whatever is necessary within their country to maintain law and order after all the Kashmiri can be termed as rebels and terrorists. But we don't because we know the truth and therefore we condemn India.
What really galled me was that he had opportunities to speak with Malaysians but chose to brush them off as stereotypes without doing proper investigation and without further ado gallingly became critical of Chinese without first checking on his facts.
When I made that statement I was hinting diplomaticly to him not to recklessly comment on subjects he knows nothing of and to be carefully of distorting truth and writing nonsense. If he cannot understand what I am trying to convey to him then we can conclude that he is either dim-witted or a crackpot.

Ying said...

China Air and Naval Power is just reverse engineering of western and russian designs and will more likely be DUDS and SUDS in the real theatre (war). I give ya one proof of Chang'e 1. China only posted "one pic" of its two year's mission, again which was photoshopped of an american picture. all other countries who sent the moon craft posted videos, pic galleries and so on and China had a "dick all" to post because chang'e 1 missed the moon probably by 1/2 a million miles (hope you china men understand 1/2 million mile distance) maybe you can read the cooments from the link below

http://www.universetoday.com/2009/03/01/change-1-bites-the-moon-dust/#more-26401

Ying said...

Koh and Jiang:

Xinjiang and tibet and part of mongolia are free countries and illegally occupied by china. sooner if not later the people of tibet and xinjiang will rule their own distiny. communism paid a heavy price in evil communist empire of soviet russia, so will it pay in your evil communist empire of china.

Power to the people (democracy will win)

shunjing said...

@Baba koh. My regards to bibik. Why are non China Chinese boasting about PRC 's achievements. Jiang is no more Chinese who live and breathe China. Bad air in most cases. The Babas and Abc deride the newly arrived Chinese and treat the girls like sex slaves. So instead of making the real Chinese look bad , I hope you 2 stop your racist posting. - PAP

Allan said...

you think you Chini malais are so powerful and well on the way to be world power...

you dumb shit, how many countries in the world respect you for what you stand for?? you are hated everywhere..not to mention around your neighnorhoos,m but in west, europe and Africa...

Your leaders are so scared, they get RED like Rotwiler when Obama talks to Dalai Lama. Youyr country is so scared, you cannot even let people have freedome of speech...

You think you are power than India? mothefuckers then try to TAKE ARUNACHAL PRADESH FROM US?? you have been barking for last 60 years, till your masters daddy's COIMMUNIST came in power...what have you got till now??

even companies like Google don;t want to do any business in your eghoistic and slave minded Chini land...fuck off@!!

Allan said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Allan said...

you think you Chini malais are so powerful and well on the way to be world power...

you dumb shit, how many countries in the world respect you for what you stand for?? you are hated everywhere..not to mention around your neighnorhood, but in west, europe and Africa...

Your leaders are so scared, they get RED like Rotwiler when Obama talks to Dalai Lama. Your country is so scared, you cannot even let people have freedome of speech...

You think you are power than India? mothefuckers then try to TAKE ARUNACHAL PRADESH FROM US?? you have been barking for last 60 years, since your masters daddys COIMMUNISTS came in power...what have you got till now??

even companies like Google don't want to do any business in your egoistic and slave minded Chini land...fuck off@!!

SAM said...

Jiange is child yet

SAM said...

Jiange is child yet

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