Thursday, June 4, 2009

Remembering June 4th

As we just passed the 20th anniversary of the June 4th crackdown on the TianAnMen Square protests (aka LiuSi to Chinese people), a common question is what do we really know about the events of that time?

A bombshell came out a month ago regarding the memoir of the depose leader Zhao ZiYang. For those who don't know who he is, he was the most prominent voice for the student protestors in the Politburo at that time. He tried, unsuccessfully, to prevent the rest of the Politburo Standing Commitee from sending in the troops against the students and was later sacked and spent the remaining years of his life under state supervision. I think of all the major players in the entire crackdown, he and Wang Dan are the only ones that I truly deeply respect.

For those who don't know, most of the leaders from the student protests used their status to flow to Western countries instead of sharing the pains of other protestors. Now a lot of them live as political refugee in America, get paid to say bad things about the Chinese gov't, but they never even try to go into China to fight for democracy. Wang Dan on the other hand did not use his status to flee to America, but rather served his part of his sentence in China. He continued to fight for the rights of workers and oridnary folks until he was kicked out of the country. And of course, much of the leadership at that time were a bunch of cowards. They would rather send soldiers against their own citizens rather than taking back statements they made, because they feared that looking weak would jeopardize their careers.

A while ago, a man in my College Christian fellowship shared with me what happened in those protests. In 1989, student protests were happening across the country. Many university students got involved and my friend was involved in the one in Wuhan. I think he was later arrested and went to jail for a couple of weeks before being released. Or as he called it "he learnt his lessons". He was had a friend that was a leader in the protests from his university who later got arrested and jailed for 3 months. Anyhow, he mentioned some really interesting points:

1) The demonstration was probably at its highest point in mid May. I think he mentioned there was probably a million people gathered up to do the protests. A lot of them weren't even students, they were just there because it was like a big party.

2) He also mentioned that a lot of students were idealistic back then and really wanted to do this, but a lot were also just in it for the adventurous. In fact, part of the reason he got involved was for the excitement. He did crazy things like tying himself to a railroad on one of the most frequented railway bridges to prevent trains from passing.

3) After the martial law was imposed in May 20th, the gov't basically told the students that they were coming in and the military orders was to disperse the students and get inside to Tiananmen square by June 4th. And so starting in late May, the troops were moving in closer and closer everyday.

4) By June 3rd, a lot of people had actually left. And I think late that evening, they flickered the lights in Tiananmen square. Basically saying that this is your last chance to get out before the troops are coming in. By this time, a lot of students knew bad things were going to happen, so they left already. And a lot of people who were there were just ordinary citizens who really weren't that well educated, so they might not have been even aware even up to this point what was going on.

5) So when the troops moved in, there were basically two groups. One is the circling group that was moving in from the outside. And the second is the group of soldiers came out from the Great hall of the people. A lot of protesters were stunned by this because they really weren't prepared for this second group.

6) So according to my friend, the soldiers initially were firing up to try to scare away the crowd, because those who stayed behind really weren't looking to just disperse and go away. But what happened was some of the shots ended up getting deflected and hit some people in the crowd. And then, the protestors thought the soldiers were just firing indiscriminately at them, so then they started to fight back. And the soldiers fought back (in previous days, some soldiers had been killed by students, because they still weren't allowed to fire at students) by firing at the students. This is probably when most of the deaths happened.

So, looking back and to the present, there are a lot of questions we can ask:

Can something like this ever happen again if there are a lot of social problems as in 1989?
I really don't think so. A lot of really extraordinary circumstances caused what happened. At that time, the police in China weren't equipped to properly handle/disperse crowds, so they had to get soldiers to shoot at people. They now have modern equipments to break up a large protest if needed. They are so much better at containing the size of protests now (whether through harassment or bribing). The other part is that future protest leaders would know when the regime has reached the final straw and would withdraw the protesters before then. The protesters themselves would also know when they must leave.

Is China less free now than it was back in 1989?
The answer is no and anyone that suggests otherwise really have no clue what is going on in the country. I think over the past 20 years, you are starting to see ordinary citizens getting more freedom/rights from the gov't. Once people get certain rights, it's really impossible for the gov't to take that rights away. All of the internet clamp downs in the recent times only indicates how much less control the gov't has. 20 years ago, it wouldn't even have to worry about people seeking those rights. A year ago, a Shanghai community successfully stopped a gov't project to build a maglev line close to their neighbourhood by protesting as a group. Also in Sichuan, one family finally managed to defy the local gov't for accepting what it deemed an unfair resettlement package. Even though there are still plenty of corruption/abuse of power in the country, the public is fighting for its rights and winning in many of those battles. Basically, as long as you don't try to assemble a huge group of people to change the gov't, they will leave you alone. If you look at the people that signed Charter 08, nothing happened to most of the them.

Do people know about what happened in 1989?
Speaking for my generation (those who were in elementary/middle school during that time), I think most of us would know something like this happened, but would not know how bad it was. We would know that there were large student protests around the country, that soldiers and students collided, but we wouldn't know that soldiers killed a lot of students. For those younger than my generation (those born after 85), I would think most of them would have very little idea of what happened. For rest of the population (especially for those between 40 and 50), June 4th still likely remain as one of the landmark events of their lives. Most of the students/teachers in college at that time either participated or knew people that did participate.

What do those students feel about it now?
I think there is a huge divergent of opinions here. Those that were there the night the soldiers moved in are probably the ones that are still the most angry toward the regime. The students that participated in other cities or left before June 4th have generally accepted the events. There is a general feeling that a lot of them were caught up in the moment and were very naive about the world. The friend that I'm quoting here felt that he was going through an adventure, did a lot of foolish/non-pragmatic things that he would never do later. After he and some others got arrested and jailed for one or two months, they pretty much lost any ideals that they had after they came out. There are definitely still some students that have the ideals and want to fight on, but most of the students were never that ideal to begin with. They had certain grievances to air out and student protests were the fashionable thing to do during that 1 month. Most of that generation are also the people that have benefited the most from the economic growth of the past 20 years, so they have mostly accepted the regime and try to work within it.

What kind of regime is China really?
The simple answer to that is Authoritarianism, but I think that's way too simple. It certainly is in no way socialist and communist. One of my best firend has called China the most successful facist regime in the history and that's true in many ways if you look at how China is right now and what facism really means. If you look at its pro-business/pro-growth public policies, it is probably one of the most fiscally conservative, right wing gov't out there. Recently, I feel like it's more of a Utilitarianist gov't. In many ways, there is almost an implicit hand shake between the majority or at least the most vocal/influential part of the population (lead by the intellectuals, job holding city-dwellers, wealthy elites, CCP members) and gov't that "don't cause any big trouble and we will all get rich and you will be left alone". And looking at Chinese history, this huge group of people probably have never been more free and have more rights. Of course, there is also the minority that gets "shafted" and are quite bitter to the government. This group consists of mostly ethnic groups that fail to assimilate with Han majority, the migrant workers (although they have slowly come out here), the rural folks who are ripped of by land seizures, and the marginalized members of a society. Their lives most likely haven't improved at all through this economic boom. That's why even though there are a lot of protests around the country, the gov't actually has very strong support amongst the majority of the population. And you see Chinese leaders acting more than ever like Western politicians to maintain support at home.

Will there be democracy in China?
This really is a hard question, because a lot of the reforms are dependent on the members of PSC. When Jiang Zemin was in power, he instituted some elementary forms of democracy. For the past few years, China has had village level elections, although there have been some accusations of rigged voting. But generally speaking, the village level elections have certainly elected some leaders who otherwise would never gotten to their position. A couple of years ago, Premier Wen Jiabao also talked about setting up municipal level elections across the country. Although, it's not known how long that would take to set up and whether or not it will be nationwide. The next generation of leaders like Xi Jinping is likely to be more reform minded than Hu Jintao, because he was the party chief at more liberal areas like Zhejiang and Shanghai before being promoted to PSC. Hu Jintao turned out to be very stubborn to reforms, probably because he was the Party chief at more backward areas like Gansu and Tibet. So, there are some cause for optimism, although seeing Western style multi-party free election is unlikely to happen in the near future. It's more likely to see voting between one faction of the communist party and another faction. And I think at immediate time, most people in China just wants to see less corruption in government and a stronger rule of law in their personal lives.

In the end, I feel that the tragedy of the entire event was how easily it could have been prevented. If the PSC members weren't so out of touch with some of the people's grievances at that time, they wouldn't have angered the students more with their comment. If PSC members weren't so concerned with looking strong in front of Deng, they could have stopped the martial law from declaring and the soldiers from moving in. If the student leaders at that time had realized the severity of the issue, they should've taken it upon themselves to persuade the protesters to disperse. Looking back now, it should have been clear to the student leaders that the army had a military order to disperse everyone from TianAnMen Square by June 4th using whatever method necessary. Would the students have resisted the soldiers in the beginning like they did had they realized that the soldiers were allowed to fire back this time. Remember that in the earlier days of martial law, soldiers weren't allowed to fire, so several of them were burnt to death by student retaliation. And worst of all, if they only had riot police trained with how to disperse a crowd, they could have done with much less damage.

Since LiuSi, CCP has certainly learnt a lot on how to deal with possible troubles. It has essentially given itself quite the long life line by becoming very sophisticated at dealing with those who might form a protest. Democracy is certainly no where near on the top of wanted list for Chinese public. However, CCP will have to keep on raising living standards, improving the level of corruption, giving more rights to individuals by maintaining the rule of law and fighting other big issues like environment degradation and product safety in order to keep the population satisfied. Some people say that if CCP caved to the students in 1989, China would not only have achieved the economic success of the past 20 years but also progressed much further in terms of personal freedom and human rights. Others say that China would've been a more free country, but would not have achieved the same level of economic success. The truth is that nobody can know for sure, but CCP certainly has done a pretty good job in past 20 years. Will CCP eventually come out and apologize and own up for what it did in 1989? I certainly think it is possible in the future as the Chinese society becomes more free and the leadership becomes more liberal to changes. Maybe then, those who suffered in LiuSi would receive the anti-dote for their years of pain.

39 comments:

Teja said...

So who exactly was flow from china to america??
And who gets paid to say bad thing about your country.

Any links...to support your claim.

Or is it some new Chinese propaganda ?

Jiang said...

Teja, you peice of bhangeee BHIHIDIAN. It is none of your bussiness what happen to my country!!! What about the world's largest DemonCRAZY hindia??? What happened in 1984 to the sikhs?? Why are there so many slumdogs in hindia???

What happend to Kashimire??

NOW GET THIS!!! You little r@T, Feng never create things like propaganda, he is far more knowledgeble than you in terms of our history.

Feng said...

Wu'er Kaixi is a well known one. All the major student leaders had the connections to get out. The only one that insisted on staying in was Wang Dan. To this day, he is by far the most respected of the student leaders and deservedly so.

Eric Z said...

Feng, this analysis is extremely good.
My mother was a student protester at the time and says many things which are similar to what you have claimed (i.e.: joining the protests for the hell of it, the soldiers being unequipped, western influences etc)
My mother did leave before June 4th, and similar to your hypothesis, does accept the events, as well as defends the government's actions.
"soldiers weren't allowed to fire, so several of them were burnt to death by student retaliation" oh my god, my mother practically said the same thing. Apparently most of the burning was while the soldiers were in transport buses...

Teja, do you really think that this blog can be counted as chinese propaganda?


Jiang, take a chill pill man!

Finally feng, you said a freind of yours called china the most successful fascist regime in history. How's China fascist? I mean isn't being fascist when you think you're superior to everyone else? Or was that just what Nazi Germany was? (Me on my part encounter people who call China fascist mostly because I think it's now a derogatory word rather than a word to describe a regime)

It's such a shame that the government had no real riot police at the time, more of a shame that both the students and government were inevitably justified in their actions (imo).
Good work on this one Feng.

Jiang said...

Teja, craw back to your filth IDF and Bharat R@T sh!T form. you do not belong and not welcome here.

Feng, and Eric. Great argument, I think both the Chinese government and Chinese students did something wrong. I understand how young teens feel becausee I am one. Sometimes if I want somethings I want it right away which is exactly what the students think, they want more rights right away which lead to this tragedy.

Jiang said...

Oh, BTW. Teja, you are indeed quite stupid as well. You came to the wrong place.

Feng said...

Jiang, calm down. Teja is allowed to have his views. Nothing gets accomplished by insulting others.

As for fascism, I'm not referring to derogatory part, but the parts referring more to authoritarianism + economic philosophy + control of the media. Certainly, China is not as nationalistic, militaristic or radical as Italy and Germany in WWII, but it's economic model is closer to that side. Especially the part where businesses are favoured and worker rights are generally ignored.

Teja said...

Very mature dude...very mature...

Teja said...

" it was like a big party."

Party? are you sure!
" In fact, part of the reason he got involved was for the excitement. He did crazy things like tying himself to a railroad on one of the most frequented railway bridges to prevent trains from passing."

This is your source...A guy who is half doped and rest lunatic?

" By this time, a lot of students knew bad things were going to happen, so they left already."

May be the students thought that the soldier too were coming for the party!

I mean it is possible...

" This is probably when most of the deaths happened."

what is the Chinese govt. estimate of the deaths?Any links



"Do people know about what happened in 1989?"

Face it NO.
Beacause if you did you would never call it a party!


So why were tanks present in location...? you know...just curious.


you might want to watch this video first before you reply.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qV-tk8CrqCQ

and this
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/8070970.stm

and this too
http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/documentaries/2009/05/090519_lostvoices_tiananmen_one.shtml

Hey Jiang you might want to do some reading first before you talk.

Eric...well what can I say .... they are Chinese.They called the massacre a party.

Feng,any link to support your claim. Like i posted proper BBC and CNN links.You know.

even in Chinese..i will use babel fish to translate it.

Eric Z said...

Teja, if you're looking for western sources to back up Feng's argument it's going to be near impossible. Do you think that BBC or CNN will publish things like Chinese people being paid to criticize the Chinese government? I'm not even sure if CCTV or Xinhua will publish somehting like that because it criticizes the Chinese government indirectly.

Teja, I am Chinese too, uhh just to tell you. But do you think that Feng was referring to the actual killings as a party? It was the protesting that was a party. It was the excitement of the moment. Can you imagine yourself, being able to go for democracy among the country's vast amount of university students against a communist government! That is the kind of euphoria that they had. They went a bit far. The governemnt went a bit far.
The government gave numbers I think were about the mid 200's, with dissidents and "leaders" saying it's among the thousands. I personally think it's no more than a thousand.
Teja, I'm not going to quote you using speech marks (it's a waste of space) but you continuously mention bbc as your sources.
Feng's source... tied himself to a railway. Well that's what things were like then. The students at the time were all extremely fanatic. Not saying it was wrong.

But Teja what are you trying to say?
Feng's provided a well reasoned argument, showing practically both sides of the story. It doesn't fit with the Western perspective of the "democracy students seeking freedom and liberity from a vicious communist government". But that's the way it was.

My conclusion is that the students were fighting for something which should have been theirs, but they were caught up in the moment. The government was frightened, with the fall of communist blocs in europe happenning. The government ordered soldiers to stop the protests which were getting more and more violent. Finally it reached critical mass and exploded. It was a tragedy, it was wrong. But it was justified.

What's your conclusion Teja?

PS: some of the things that feng said can obviously not be backed up by "links". Some things just can't. Just say if you accept it or not.
PPS: Jiang, you say you're a young teen. I am too. Take a chill pill. I can understand why you're hostile towards some Indians but man, give some of them a chance. Not all of them are... overly unrealistic.

Teja said...

Did you even see the videos I asked you to see.?

China gave numbers..where? Link. You and I know very well how chat rooms and forums work.So back up your claims.

You want me to believe a source like that? who ties him self to a train, a jumbo jet and god knows what..just for the heck of it?

Bringing tanks to crush students to death...hmm...Justifiable ???

Think again.

Feng provides argument, I provide proof. :D

Court cases are won on proof not argument.
Documented pics,Videos...People being shot... tanks brought it..

CNN for a change...

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/06/02/cnn.tiananmen.coverage/#cnnSTCVideo

I have some Russian and some french links too,let me know

Let me know what you think.
Open up twitter and hit "June 4th"

let me know

Eric Z said...

I actually didn't see the videos you put up, my internet's too slow. :(
Here's a link:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/tankman/cron/

Numbers are evidence. It's a shame right now we're not in a courtroom but merely a comment page on a blog.
I just read the CNN article you provided. It talks of how it put CNN on the map. Is that evidence?

Please please PLEASE don't exaggerate Teja. Did Feng say anything about a jumbo jet? He said his friend tied himself to a railway.

Teja, I never said "tanks" I said their reaction. Which constituted of sending in soldiers, APC's and yes tanks. But it's up to interpretation whether they were ordered to crush the students or not. At least they had no riot police at the time. Do you think they would have sent them in if they did?...
It was justified to send troops in because the time they were in was a period where communist countires were collapsing with social unrest, and they too were frightened. Their reaction was justified because they had no riot police and therefore were only able to do what they were able to. i.e.: eventually shooting.

Also I don't understand how this constitutes anything like a court case. Feng posted a blog. Now we're arguing over evidence. Or are you arguing that some points Feng made out are somehow wrong?

Are you saying they're wrong because that he doesn't provide evidence in the form of links? The worlds not completely linked to the internet yet as much as we would like to be, so really if you don't want to believe then don't.
Or are you not wanting to believe what he says because you were raised to believe that China and the incident in general was completely unjustified and was a dozen thousand massacre?

By the way i just searched into twitter "June 4th" the results showed maybe half a dozen tweets which have anything to do with china. the rest are just people telling the date in relation to their lives.

Teja, let me ask you again, what's your conclusion? Instead of squabbling over evidence which is provided by people in real life let's talk about what you think and why you're here debating with us.
Do you think that Feng's post was wrong? If so, Why?

Lastly, I want to make out the point that evidence doesn't come from only videos, photos... whatever. It can also be in the form of a witness..

Just answer these questions:
What is your conclusion of tian an men in 1989?
Why do you challenge feng's blog, basically what do you disagree with it?

Eric Z said...

Also, you said "you want me to believe a source like that".

Well it's not my source, but from an observer I would ask why you infer that it's unreliable or screwed up or... whatever.

Another question to answer: Do you think Feng's post was biased at all?

But from experience most people don't answer straight forward questions in these heated debates. I'm not sure if it's because they think it shows weakness or whatever. Oh well.

Teja, let's pretend that all of what Feng said was true (not saying it isn't, but because you're so skeptical...). Does what he say seem so strange and unbelieveable as you think? Are you fighting for truth, or interpretation of truth?

Oh and please don't make it seem like you somehow have the "evidence". If you want links to every single word that Feng or anyone says to see if it's true...
That makes me want to ask again, why are you challenging Feng's claims. Is it because it sounds kind of dodgy, kind of strange or unbelieveable or because you're challenging it for the sake of challenging it?

Feng, btw I can tell now why you don't like posting political topics.

Teja said...

"They yell at the soldiers and some throw rocks; someone sets a bus on fire. The soldiers start firing on the unarmed civilians with AK-47s loaded with battlefield ammunition."

Feng clearly states that it was un intentional.But the article you gave me say it was started by army itself.

This is from the link you gave me.
you call my links from cnn "just a blog"

What do you think the PBS links are ?

In how many countries have you seen tanks being sent out to control riots?They were sent to crush the people...Literally.
Was this justified too.


You want to justify this.

Feng here mentions that Student leader got refuge in America but he fails to mention any links.

Making stuff up ?

See I think Fengs post is wrong as it justifies each and Every brutality done by the Chinese govt in killing its people.

Conclusions....
"What is your conclusion of tian an men in 1989?"

It was a massacre of proportions which was done by a Communist
regime.The whole world was watching live as the events unfolded.
Don't justify it by saying some lunatic said this.

If you have slow internet then be patient ...watch the video i showed you and then reply.

Do you think Feng's post was biased at all?

Fengs post biased.....it has no knowledge of how the event unfolded.
It just justifies all the actions of the govt.with some guy we do not know, as a witness,who apparently gets his kicks from tying himself to a railway track.

Fengs claim do not sound dodgy...they seem to mock the whole damn incident which happened by calling it a party!!

"Feng, btw I can tell now why you don't like posting political topics."

Lack of insight and lack of proper sources (Come on now)

Feng said...

I don't like posting political stuff because I like to normally keep this to military stuff rather than an immature bickering between Indians and Jiang.

As for deaths numbers, Nicholas Kristof was there in Beijing reporting for Times and visited many of the hospitals and he said 400-800. You can read some of his answers to questions about it here.
http://kristof.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/03/answering-your-china-questions/
He should be more credible on this than most people who were never there.

As for my knowledge of the event, it comes from talking to my parents about it who were university lecturers at that time, talking to other people about it at that, listening to this group of my talking about it, reading a lot of different people's perspective on it and watching documentaries on it. I don't proclaim to know everything, but I've had enough first hand sources to get a good idea of what happened.

As for the friend I referred to, he is not on dope or anything like that. A lot of students those things did really crazy things. Nothing unlike what the anti-war protesters did in America in 60s, except that most Chinese students weren't taking drugs.

As for the party part, it was a big party for a lot of people in May. Now obviously, it wasn't a party when the troops came in. I don't really see where I referred to the shooting as a party.

Now, I'm not really sure what kind of proof you are asking for here. I clearly said what the gov't did in LiuSi was wrong and that a lot of people died. And Kristof's death toll numbers pretty much agrees with my friend's numbers and also what other Chinese people involved told me. If people from bbc and cnn were there, they would've been just additional first person accounts, no more knowledgeable of the events than the student protesters.

Teja said...

"I clearly said what the gov't did in LiuSi was wrong and that a lot of people died."

I rest my case.

Nice blog though.
Really informative article on Chinese mil equipment.

I have you on my RSS.

Eric Z said...

Teja, I didn'mean CNN was a blog. I said THIS is a blog. We're just on the comment page of a blog, not a courtroom is what i was making out.

Teja, I suppose not being Chinese and not knowing chinese relatives or friends who were part of the protests is what's keeping you from believing it. I myself believe that there was euphoria and people did crazy stuff...


If I can say something last, I think that the students had the right to protest (and they did for a while), and what the government did was wrong. But I think what the government did was justified to an extent and it wasn't just senseless killing..

oringo said...

Feng,

Great analysis. I was also in grade school in China when 6-4 took place and was originally very confused about who killed whom (there was significant amount of gov't propaganda immediately after the event). After immigrating to US, I've read/heard many accounts of it entirely on the opposite side of what the Chinese gov't said. PBS did a documentary on 6-4 a few years back with a focus on the man trying to stop the tank and it really openned my eyes, as these were actual footage taken by hidden cameras. I think for events like these, truth is never a trivial fact, and one must go to many different sources, sometimes radically different to get a better understanding.

However, I think the Chinese gov't deserves the criticism for the handling of the AFTERMATH of the event. They denied everything and made the soldiers look like heros for dismantling a "anti-revolutionary violence." That kind of arguement is very similar to the ones used in Cultural Revolution (which I'm also slowing trying to understand). This is a gov't that instead of taking responsibilities for its actions, attempted to cover up everything and make wrong right through control of media.

oringo said...

btw Teja,

no offense but CNN is not a neutral souce. They are a for-profit news organization that has relied on maximizing viewership through biased reporting. IMO they are no better than fox news. Just take a look at their reporting of the Tibetan unrest last year. How many times have you seen them reporting the Tibetans were violent against the Hans?

Koh said...

Teja please remember that the June 4th incident happened 20 yrs ago. I was not there to witness the actual happenings. Were you? I don't think so.
It seems to me you are fond of parroting reports of western medias who were wellknown for being biased against China, Russia and even your own beloved India. Most of the reports were either lies or half truth. They had even tampered with photos in order to convince their readerships. However, the Americans are now aware that their news medias cannot be trusted to present true reporting and while they had awaken you are still asleep. I will stop here on this subject on news reporting fabricated to suit the West own ends.
In the Katrina crisis the American send in their soldiers to shoot looters (Hungry people looking for food) without bringing any food or aid. In the Szechuan crisis the Chinese send in soldiers with aids and food to the rescue. The leaderships were even there and the West even ridicule this simple act of concern. Can you see the difference or you choose not to?
Let me enlighten you a bit on India recent history. Recently a retired Indian General (In case you are ignorant he is General J.J. Singh and this report was in an Indian Newspaper) has called for full declassification of war records of the 1962, l965 abd l971 wars. We will only talk about the 1962 war. After 45 over years they still refused to make public the wrong doing of Nehru and Krishnan Menon who put thousands of Indian soldiers to risks and death through arrogant, thoughless, and secretive actions over and above the loss of national wealth which even parliament and cabinet colleques were kept in the dark.
Teja you are behaving like a pariah dog barking unnecessary to attract attention. Why not go after your own government and try to improve conditions in your own country instead of poking your nose into something that does not concern you. Oh dearie me I forgot you are fond of aping the West especially the Americans who must meddle in other countries' internal affair and creating troubles.
They said that when a fool opens his mouth to speak somebody will his foot in.
Unless and until you learn to be discerning and able to analyse and shift throught the truths from the lies and half-truth I suggest you refrain from writing and making a fool of yourself.
Frankly I would rather see Asians united than divided and suspicious of each other which is what the West want. However, I know that I won't see that day (I am almost in my seventies) but I hope the younger generations will realized that they need each other to compete with the arrogant West.
Don't keep harping on what happened 20 yrs ago, for that is what the West want, and forgetting that the Americans and the West are killing innocent Asian by the hundreds even as you read my posts.

Jiang said...

Everyone just take a look at Teja's intelligent quote and you will understand his personility and his view point toward our country. His is just like one of those indians on IDF and Bharat form whom spends countless amouont of time bashing and insulting our country. Even on our own fourm he acts like this, you can imagine what will he say on his form.

Teja, I am mature and in fact more mature than you are, that is why I do not spend time on your filthy forms instead only on our own forms. Unlike you who is shameless about your own country's beheave in 1984, and current Kashmire.

You should leave here as you can see that NONE of my Chinese countryman here aggress with you. You are not welcome and your quote sucks too.

Koh said...

When the british left the Indian sub-continent they divided it up into Pakistan and India and freely gave away lands belonging to other countries to India which explain why India has so much of internal militant activities bring chaos, deaths, misery and suffering. This is the british way of divide and rule. The Indian armed forces put down the resistances with great brutality killing even those who surrender. You said it the West turned a blind eye to all these. Teja do you know all this or you choose not to because it will shame you. The world largest democracy, as the West would like you to believe, is actually a suppressive and aggressive democrazy (Notice that I use the word Z instead of C) making a mockery of the word. A Latvian-Jewish philosopher said that democrazy and freedom do not always work hand in hand. The American definition of the those words are well known. If you are not with me I will slaughter you by the thousands, if not by the million if need be, all in the name of freedom and democrazy. Yet the rest of the West do not condemned them. Why? Because they are a part of the system. If it is an Asian country you can bet your last dime that they will cry blue murder and demand you be charged for war crime. Bush, Cheney, Rumfield are great examples of war criminals and though many American called for them to be charged Obama refused. BTW he is slowly becoming more bullshit as time goes by. So Teja if you are a true ASIAN do not parrot what the West are saying or are you thinking that you are a Westerner. Do you not realize that the West are afraid of the rising power and wealth of the Asian especially India and China. Or are you simply supporting them because you are ashamed to be an Indian. Wake up man and be proud of what you are. As an Asian I am ashamed of you.

Teja said...

Look at you guys go.....
Seems the chinese govt has put down the "Great fire wall of china"

1.General J.J. Singh has called for declassification of 1962 Indo China war.Yes he has.Please read more about the Right to Information act 2005.It allows any citizen of India to question any and every action of the Govt.Lot of articles have to be declassified and they will be declassified in a couple of years.Nehru was wrong in his china policies.
http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/may/23spec.htm

We all know this.
In a matter of few year the 1962 war documents will be declassified.


2.Cnn is no a neutral source, BBC is not a neutral source...Please don't tell me CCTV is a neutral source now!

3.@oringo
The topic here was Tinamen square and not British India.As you cannot put a valid argument you chose to divert the topic.
I am quite sure Mao is no saint either.

Din't he starve his own population to death ?

http://www.disastercenter.com/disaster/TOP100K.html


Well get your facts right if you want to feel anything like a human, dear.

4.@koh
Big words there...but again you deviated from the topic.The topic here was Tienanmen square.
Democracy...democrazy... we can discuss in some other thread.

5.@jing
Grow up.This is not your blog...is it ? The owner of the blog has no problem....does he? So i think ...Nah...Grow up.!

Like I said before

Feng has accepted that it was a mistake made by the Chinese Govt.

I rest my case.

All you other dude...before you hit "reply"..for the last time...the topic here is "june 4th Tienanmen Square" not manmohan singh or Mao or 1962 war. You want to discuss this, then lets take it to some other forum ...I'll be happy to oblige.

Chao

Koh said...

Teja when you decided to critise China on the "massacre" which as I said happened 20 yrs ago you must be prepared to answer the vast wrong doings, of your beloved India's evil past. You can't take a holier than thou attitude which the West are famous for. We are not diverting the issue. I have explictly asked whether you were there and personally witnessed the June 4th incident. Though you have not answered the question I know for certain that the answer is a big "NO". You attack China based on Western's media, which you now admit is not neutral, you are willing helping to propagate their lies indicate that you are in fact a Western running dog.
You talked about the 2005 information right and the American talked about their freedom and democracy. Let put it this way. Empty hypocrital talks. In fact India is a very repressive democrazy a word only the richs and elites enjoy the right to subjugate/suppress the vast majority of India poor especially the untouchable. Don't tell me you are unaware of this or are you suffering from selective amnesia.
For almost 48 yrs and still not unclassified. From what I know the Indian press said that this will not be declassified as long as Congress is in power for very obvious reasons. Teja you forgot I told you once to get your facts right before you answer. Don't give me half-truth.
You don't wish to talk about British India because you knew about their method of divide and rule and their famous habit of illegally giving away lands they had no right to because they want to creat troubles/problems which they succeeded in doing. (You now stand accused of abetting them) You also avoided answering the issue of India brutality in putting down dissenters. In the l961 or thereabout the "Gentle Peace Loving" Indian Army massacre the rebels of Arunachal Pradesh when they surrendered. You can change the name to an Indian name but the fact is that that piece of real estate belongs to Tibet which is part of China.
This is not diverting from the topic as you said. Merely to tell you don't harp on the past issues, which are irrelevant, based on lies, half-truth and biased reporting and at the same to point out to you that India is no better if not worse. We are not perfect, no country is.
If you need to do some bashing then I would suggest America, Britain and Israel or even France (They had treated the Vietnamese with great brutality and cruelty until they were defeated and driven out by force by the Vietnamese. The atrocity these countries inflicted on other countries is so extreme and yet there is none to condemn them. Why? Because as I said earlier they are all part of the system. Don't pick on your fellow Asian and parroting the West.
I also said the West is afraid of Asia and if we stick together they will not be able to bully us Just imagine South. West, Central, East and S.East Asia united and a strong force to reckon with. I am sure you are not so dumb or thick headed not to realize this unless you are pro West and anti-Asia in which all of us can classify as a traitor.
In conclusion I will end with this
Yesterday is History. Tomorrow is a mystery and today is the present. A present from God to build a better future. Having intelligence, we must not act in ignorance. Having choice we must not act without responsiblity.
Hope you can understand the above and digest the full import of it.

Koh said...

Teja when you decided to critise China on the "massacre" which as I said happened 20 yrs ago you must be prepared to answer the vast wrong doings, of your beloved India's evil past. You can't take a holier than thou attitude which the West are famous for. We are not diverting the issue. I have explictly asked whether you were there and personally witnessed the June 4th incident. Though you have not answered the question I know for certain that the answer is a big "NO". You attack China based on Western's media, which you now admit is not neutral, you are willing helping to propagate their lies indicate that you are in fact a Western running dog.
You talked about the 2005 information right and the American talked about their freedom and democracy. Let put it this way. Empty hypocrital talks. In fact India is a very repressive democrazy a word only the richs and elites enjoy the right to subjugate/suppress the vast majority of India poor especially the untouchable. Don't tell me you are unaware of this or are you suffering from selective amnesia.
For almost 48 yrs and still not unclassified. From what I know the Indian press said that this will not be declassified as long as Congress is in power for very obvious reasons. Teja you forgot I told you once to get your facts right before you answer. Don't give me half-truth.
You don't wish to talk about British India because you knew about their method of divide and rule and their famous habit of illegally giving away lands they had no right to because they want to creat troubles/problems which they succeeded in doing. (You now stand accused of abetting them) You also avoided answering the issue of India brutality in putting down dissenters. In the l961 or thereabout the "Gentle Peace Loving" Indian Army massacre the rebels of Arunachal Pradesh when they surrendered. You can change the name to an Indian name but the fact is that that piece of real estate belongs to Tibet which is part of China.
This is not diverting from the topic as you said. Merely to tell you don't harp on the past issues, which are irrelevant, based on lies, half-truth and biased reporting and at the same to point out to you that India is no better if not worse. We are not perfect, no country is.
If you need to do some bashing then I would suggest America, Britain and Israel or even France (They had treated the Vietnamese with great brutality and cruelty until they were defeated and driven out by force by the Vietnamese. The atrocity these countries inflicted on other countries is so extreme and yet there is none to condemn them. Why? Because as I said earlier they are all part of the system. Don't pick on your fellow Asian and parroting the West.
I also said the West is afraid of Asia and if we stick together they will not be able to bully us Just imagine South. West, Central, East and S.East Asia united and a strong force to reckon with. I am sure you are not so dumb or thick headed not to realize this unless you are pro West and anti-Asia in which case all of us can classify you as a traitor.
In conclusion I will end with this
Yesterday is History. Tomorrow is a mystery and today is the present. A present from God to build a better future. Having intelligence, we must not act in ignorance. Having choice we must not act without responsiblity.
Hope you can understand the above and digest the full import of it.

Eric Z said...

Teja, please and consider maybe our views aren't wrong.

I don't think anyone here claimed that CCTV was a nuetral source. The point is that BBC and CNN at least aren't. (I personally believe that CCTV is slightly less biased than BBC or CNN, but that's because it's content it's allowed to comment on is more limited)

As for Mao, the general concensus on him from chinese people is that he was 70% good, 30% bad in terms of what he did for China in general. I share this view myself. I know you'll probably reply to this saying all the stuff he did bad, but why would you? Do you want to expose me to his crimes and change my views on him? Why? China's where I was born, the chinese is my brethren why do you care how i think about them?

Oh finally Teja, don't "offer" to talk about this subject on a different blog. It gives the illusion that somehow you're not the person who was first aggressive on this blog discussion page.

We all know Tian an men was wrong, but both sides were justified in their actions. What more do people want?

Koh said...

Eric you are being too kind to Teja who write without thinking. It took him so long to admit that Nehru was wrong to attack China and he refused to talk of british India because the truth is hard to swallow. He said everything will be declassiflied but he failed to add the word "selectively".
To bluntly put it and end it all no country has a right to interfer in another country's internal affair let alone a mere insignificant individual like Teja whose only ability is to echo the West's hypocrital holier than thou rubbish. He attacked China's past without first checking whether India is free of past evil acts (which I assure you there are plenty)
IN SHORT "SHUT UP" WHAT HAPPENED OR WHAT CHINA DO IS CHINA'S AFFAIR. Teja as I said earlier mind your own businese and concentrate on what you can do to elevate the poor living condition in Inda (I doubt you can do much and that is why you are meddling in areas that does not concern you.)
It appear that you have a thick head for you do not seem to comprehend the message in my posts

Jiang said...

Teja why didn't you answer my questions about Kashimre and 1984 killings of the skihs?? Why you simply ingore those bloody facts??

Listen. Teja, you indians and we Chinese are fundamentally different. You indians dispite being inslulted, humilliated, and bashed on PDF, here and other fourms. Yet you still craw back for more!!! Have I told you that you aint welcome here, just like the fact that no one even Feng aggrees and welcomes you.

If you are on PDF you name will be change to: "I support drinking cow urine", "Facist Bhangee", "Bhangee Ki maa", or "Hindia, where urnine sells and you drink" already! So please do not tell me to grow up, Because it is YOU who needs to grow up!! Have some spine, some intergraty, some dignity and some self-respect!! Leave here and never post again. I wish I will never speak to you again.

Koh said...

Jiang he can't answer you because he, is like all his types, suffers from selective amnesia and can only echo Western holier than thou rubbish like a parrot. He didn't even address all the questions I posed to him and you know why. It is because he can't for he knew I was right but like all his kind will never admit it. It is like arguing with an insane man who insist white is black and black is white. This will be my post for it is pointless to talk to such idiot. I guess he must had been dropped on the head when he was a baby.

Eric Z said...

Guys, come on let's not deviate to personal attacks.

Build's up a negative image of Chinese people on the internet, which is definitely not good for us.

Koh, are you Chinese?

Koh said...

Eric what does my surname tells you? I can tell you this - I am not a China native nor am I a Taiwanese.
I personally have no intention of making personal attack on Teja. It is just that his stupidity irk me and as if that is not enough he became evasive and kept on spewing half-truth nonsense that really made me mad enough to call him a pariah dog a term I would not use on anyone. I know I should just call him a thick skin idiot instead of that.
I said that the last post shall be the last one but as I had to answer your question this shall instead be the last.

Teja said...

Very mature Jiang
Very mature..

oringo said...

Jiang you need to stop using the term "we Chinese". You don't represent all of us. You are just one of the Chinese population. I don't want to be associated with name-calling angry youth.

Teja on the other hand cannot even remember who said what on this thread, so I don't want to answer to his trolling any more.

Jiang said...

That is all you can say is "Very Mature"??? Are you mature?? Teja??

Origno, you are not a pure Chinese like me, I know that you have already give up your Chinese citizenship for US. I still have it, which means I am a pure Chinese you are not. You will not go back to China to help build up her Technology, but I will. I am a engineering student at a very prestige American university and current working towards my Master even PhD, when I am done I will gain working experience first and then go back. Can you do the same?? NO!! So stop thinking that you are better, cause you aint!!

Eric Z said...

Guys, let's stop bickering among each other...
It's exactly what the west wants us to do (if I'm allowed to use "us", that is)

Koh said...

Feng I want to thank you for using your blog. I am not into Indian Bashing. It is that I know the Teja type only too well that was why I was harsh in my comments on him.
To give an illustration I will go back in time to when I was a young lad of 14. I was educated in a Catholic Missionary School and my Enlish teacher was an old venerable Hindu who was educated in UK. In the class there were 2 Indian boys direct from India. One a Catholic and the other a Muslim. Exactly how it happened was lost in time but they almost came to blow while arguing about their religions. Our teacher told them to shut up and sit down and asked them how much they knew about their own religions which he dismissed as negligible without waiting for their answers and therefore not qualified to talk about religions. He then went on to tell us this:-
One Indian he will spend his time drinking toddy (a sweet fermented drink from the coconut tree) until he is in a stupor. Two Indians they will discuss politics without ever agreeing with each other. Three Indians they will start a riot. More than that they will start a rebellion. This is from an Indian himself.
Actually, I also know a few Indians who are gentle, kind, considerate, cool and always very calm and are great friends. It is the Teja type that is obnoxious and there are plenty of them around. To Jiang my personal message is this. Be cool and calm. Do what you do do well. Your aspiration is good and I know you will achieve them and be successful.
By this post I hope Jiang, Eric and Oringo will understand the low class type of Indian mentality and be forgiving at the same time understand that there are some who are very nice and can be great friends. I hope Jiang and Oringo will not fall out just because of Teja for if they do then Teja has accomplished what he set out to do.
BTW their chicken curry, roti prata, massala Dosai, chapati, Curry Keema and many more dishes are real delicious.
Cheers and may you all have beautiful days throughout your lives.

Jiang said...

Ok, I have to say I am not anti-Indian myself. But Teja is very lousy, he only wants to believe what he wants to believe. There are some nice Indian, one of my Prof. is an Indian. He is old and very knowledgeble and nice.

But Teja is his own kind, just visit IDF and Bharat Ratshit form and you will know what I am talking about. I hope Teja grow up and start to have some reasonable arguments.

Jared said...

great

Jared said...

great post as usual. pretty much sums up my feeling as well. and the thinking of many chinese.

avid follower of your blog. please keep it up.