Saturday, May 3, 2008

094 + Y-8 High New Series

So recently, we've seen an article on Telegraph, UK newspaper, regarding 094 that seemed to have blown a little out of proportion, you can see it here.

What bugs me is not that they are showing this, but indicating that this was such an amazing find. First of all, this really is not a secret base as they indicate. It's clear that Sanya is one of the 4 major naval bases for the South Sea Fleet. And as we've seen with the pictures of Hu Jintao visiting the base recently, it is not the super secretive naval base that is described here. In fact, this is the only South Sea Fleet base that most PLAN watchers probably have heard of. Of course, when 093/094 was being assigned to the South Sea Fleet, this is the most logic base that it would be assigned to. And it is also apparent to any PLAN watcher that this was the most logical fleet to assign the new nuclear submarines to. With Taiwan right next to the ESF, it's clear that you'd want to put the latest conventional submarines there. With NSF already having the first generation nuclear submarines and the powerful JMSDF right next to it, it's clear that you probably don't want to put more attack subs there. That is exactly why all of us expect any of the power projecting platforms to go to SSF. Contrary to what is mentioned in this article, putting these units in SSF actually would put them further away from the major naval powers of the theater (USN, JMSDF, ROKN, ROCN) rather than closer. The part that makes the least sense is their idea that PLAN would keep their nuclear submarines in these shelters. As any naval analyst would tell you, it does no good to keep the nuclear submarines at the base. USN certainly doesn't become the most powerful navy in the world by not going out to the seas.

Sinodefense has recently posted an entry for the High New projects with PLA, you can find them here.

While it does a good job of going through all of the planes in the High New series, I think Huitong did a better of presenting them on his site. With a lot of pictures coming out for the High New Series recently, I thought I'd do an analysis of what I think each High New plane does.

High New 1:

I guess this variant is mainly thought to be the ECM variant, because it replaced HD-5 in the 29th regiment of 10th division (as evident by 21x1x serial number). I also speculated in the past that it might be SAR variant due to the canoe-shape radome under the fuselage that looks like SAR under Tu-154. Like most other high new aircraft, this airframe is based on Y-8F400.

High New 2:

So far, I have pictures for 9351, 9361 and 9527. So clearly, this is serving for PLANAF in one of the independent regiments. Right from the start, this has been identified as an ELINT aircraft (Maybe using some technology from EP-3). As mentioned several posts ago, a simplified version of this with KZ-800 ELINT system has been offered for export.

High New 3:

This one has been identified as the command post variant of Y-8. I don't think they need too many of this variant and we certainly have only seen 30721 so far. It's part of the 21th division. I don't think there is much more I can say about this.

High New 4:

This one has been identified as a JSTARS variant by some and ECM variant by others. I personally think that it is more like a JSTARS variant, because of the fact that it's radar provides 360 degree coverage and looks like the one on 052C. I'm not sure if an ECM variant would have something like that. In addition, it doesn't make much sense for PLAAF to have two different variants of High New series doing exactly the same thing. However, having both High New 1 and 4 in the same regiment supports the theory that they are both ECM planes.

High New 5:


Also known as KJ-200, this is probably the most well known variant of the high new series. And it is also the only one that uses the Y-8F600 platform. You can identify the Y-8 planes built specifically for KJ-200 by counting the number of blades on the propellers. We know that one of the KJ-200 unit built on Y-8F600 crashed in 2006, that might have set the program back a little bit. We also know that the original KJ-200 prototype was on a Y-8F200 platform. It's believed that KJ-200 with join the 26th division in PLAAF like KJ-2000. The pictures above shows the latest KJ-200 on Y-8F600 platform that just joined PLAAF. I've always thought that there are more than 2 units of KJ-200 from reports of PLAN exercises, but all the photos only support the 2 units theory.

High New 6:
This is widely believed to be the ASW variant of Y-8. I saw a couple of photos recently that I speculate to be 6, but I'm not sure.


It doesn't look like any of the other High New series aircrafts and sorts of remind me of Y-8X. Y-8X is the Y-8 MPA currently serving for PLAN.

High New 7:

This is the latest variant that we've seen. It's speculated to be conducting psychological warfare due to its similar appearance to EC-130E.

So, that's pretty much the list. I've also read about High New 8 under development + Y-7 ASW plane. Both of these seem to have enough air under them to be legitimate. So, I guess we are just waiting for more photos.

41 comments:

Jiang said...

Hi, Feng. I just wondering how advanced is the 093 class attack submarine compare to the Sea-Wolf class? I know it is not as good as the sea wolf, but I think it should be better than the Los Angles class in terms of stealth and fire power. Also redard to Type-99A main battle tank, does it have 140mm gun now or still 125, and how accurate is the 140mm gun??

I also heard a Fu@king bloddy news that some tibeten pigs plan to use Sucidide-bomb attack against China to distrubt China and seek independent, their base is located in Bhindia. But if the tibetens are really STUPId enough to attack us then they will lose international support and we can SLAUTER THEM!!!!!

Right now I am kind of busy with my mid-term exam coming up, so I might talk to you later, wish you have a nice day. ;)

Feng said...

Hey Jiang, as much as I appreciate your passion here, I don't want you to want to talk about slaughtering other people and such. One will only become as bad as that group by doing so. And you shouldn't be called India by the name Bhindia. It's really extremely childish and I don't want to see that kind of language on this blog.

As for 093, don't expect too much out of it. It would be a tremendous achievement to even be as good as the improved LA class. I don't deal with tanks.

bigdaddy said...

As usual, the "high-new" series is another "low-old" collection of museum junk. The uncreative chinese will always be several steps behind the West. In another 50 years, maybe they will finally be able to produce their copy of the Boeing 747 when everyone else in the West will be flying with futuristic hypersonic aircrafts. LOL!!! LMAO!!!

Diwen said...

Finally given up any pretense at reason or objectivity, have we? Good, good, we need more blatant racist gits like you just so we know the angry Jiangs aren't an exclusively Chinese phenomenon. Do dribble over your keyboard a bit more, one day you may even aspire to the status of 'sad amusement'. Forlorn hope, I know, but I'm an optimistic sort.

Also: You may have been looking for Stormfront. But I, of course, quite understand that you can't tell the difference between a forum and a blog. One shouldn't place too much demand on the faculties of the mentally retarded, I am sure stringing so many words together is sufficiently taxing as it is.

Feng said...

Alright, bigdaddy, if you don't have anything worthwhile to say or ask about PLA, you can save your comments for strategypage.

Other than USA, which single country really has an entire collection of surveillance plane like China has right now?

Jiang said...
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Jiang said...

Now, regarding to the Y-8. I think it is only a temperoy solution for KJ-2000, as now we need more IL-76 so we can convert them into KJ-2000, but I think the deal is now pretty much dead. What kind of fast solution can you think off right now? I have one, and that is to deal and neigotiat with Ukrain so we can get some of their old IL-76 and IL-78 fast. I think this is not a bad idea and might work, because recently the Russian have done something stupid, the Russian threaten Ukrain that it will get nuked if Ukrain join NATO. So I think Ukrain is pretty MAD at the Russian now and They might well sell their IL-76 and IL-78 to us just to bug the Russian. Remember, Ukrain even sold the T-10 to us, so we can study it to make J-11C.

As for KJ-2000, I think it also needs upgrade so it can match the E-3, but right now the priority is to find a large aircraft fast!!!

bigdaddy said...
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dlhh said...

Guys, Please do not bother answering BigDaddy, he go away if everybody just ignore him. Those who care about this Blog, please ignore him.

dlhh said...

Feng,

Tempur got it right on the KJ-200. Actually, PLA should have 3 KJ-200 including the original Y-8F-200 prototype.

Apparently, CATIC & CETC are negotiating with Indonesia for the sale of 6 KJ-200's which will be available for export in 2009.

I have read in Sinodefence forum that one very famous scientist from 38th Institute died in the KJ-200 air crash of June 3, 2006. Is that true?

Feng said...

alright, I had to delete a couple of comments there because racist comment + personal attacks came in. Guys, this is a blog, not strategypage. We are not here to insult others, but to learn more about PLA.

Let's go through the questions:
First with regards to KJ-2000, it's a very young platform that just recent reached the fully operational level, I guess. To compare it to E-3 at this point is a little premature.

As for KJ-200, it's really not up for export at this point. The AWACS situation is a little muddled. I'm sure the one we saw in Pakistan isn't the only one designed for export. As for sinodefence, one of my main problem with it's KJ-200 section is that it did not even recognize the radar for KJ-200 is developed by the 38th institute. It believes the radar is developed by the NRIET. And yes, there was a crash of a Y-8F600 which killed numerous engineers for 38th institute, but it's nothing crippling. It probably set the Y-8F600 program back more than the KJ-200 program.

And to our friend Bigdaddy, your questions and answers can easily be refuted if you bothered to read my previous posts about where the Chinese planes and their parts come from. Do your readings, don't be lazy.

eff_pee_kay said...

yes, let's do leave out the racism & insults otherwise it just begins to resemble a playground at breaktime...and they are plenty of playgrounds on the internet 4 that kind of thing. racism always tends leaves a bit of smelly pong even if that poster never returns. well done to feng stepping in.

it's a funny old thing the internet. no internal censor, just an angry or violent thought comes up in one's mind, perhaps trigged by a post or motivated by prejudice & b4 u know it, the ol' fingers are tapping away on the keyboard, u hit the 'send' button and out that nasty post goes into the ether....would that we return to writing letters, that slow but considered medium.

on a more interesting & speculative note, can one date the surge of airborne ew types to the 2001 ep-3 hainan island incident or time frame. undoubtedly domestic ew projects would have been in hand b4 but it does seem interesting that thay all appeared to come to various stages of fruition after.

ummmm....the intelligence take in terms of hardware/software would been limited (?) but i would have expected some benefit to have been reaped; or perhaps the limited insights into us ew technology triggered a surge in r&d budgets or a bit of both. interesting 2 speculate but of course we'll never really know.

bigdaddy said...

feng, apparently you can't pass reading comprehension. I said that China copies ALL its designs from foreign sources. That includes engines, aerodynamic shapes...everything. Don't deny that. Sure, China will produce it's own copies, just like they will finally be able to COPY a Boeing 747 in another 25 years!!! LOL! LOL!

Is that the best a nation of 1.3 billion people can do? When will the world see a creative chinese soul? After the birth of another billion stagnant chinese minds, perhaps??? LOL! LOL!

bigdaddy said...
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Feng said...

So now, you feel like picking fights with me on my blog. If you want to do that, go to SDF to do it, I will debate with you all day long.

I read exactly what you wrote. I bet you haven't read about the stuff I wrote in the past. You want a list of things that are not copied from other countries?
anti-air UCAV, JH-7A, JF-17, J-10, WS-500 series, K-8, JL-9, WP-14, WS-12, WS-15

And if you are going to try to argue that JF-17/J-10 are copied designs, go read these blog entries, check their design specifications and such.

Jiang said...
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Jiang said...
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Feng said...

alright, just deleting Jiang's comments because I don't want this back and forth banter to continue on my blog. I really hate for having to get to this point, but guys i'm going to have to delete any further comments on "China is behind" vs retaliation.

But to answer Jiang's questions, KJ-2000 according to China is an improvement over Phalcon. Remember, they had the relevant data for Phalcon, so that would be a baseline requirement for KJ-2000. Of course, KJ-2000 would still lack in maturity compared to Phalcon. That's why it took 3 years from when it joined service to when it actually achieved operational capability. As for 093, it's a work in progress. 095 is the new standard now, we are still waiting for the first one to get launched and go through its sea tests. As for improvements from LA class to Sea Wolf, stealth is obviously the main requirement. Sea Wolf is said to be quieter travelling at 25 knots than LA class is at standstill. Having VLS is obviously another major improvement, although later LA class do have this. Other improvements could include more reliable and longer lasting nuclear reactors (as we've seen with the ones on Astute class). If you ever looked at Virginia class, you'd see the number of new sonars it has. There are certainly more types of sonars that can be installed on 093. You'd have to ask a sub expert to get all of the improvements.

Jiang said...

Okay Feng, what about the 052C class Destoryer. I heard it use Agies Tech which makes the 052C to have similar capability. But then I heard it is not as good, because it is our first attempt to build an Agies class destoryer. Is that true? I know that 052C is already lunched in 2002 but so far only two are in serverice. Just wondering how many 052 class destoryers do we have. If we are going to build AC then we must have them to provide air-cover for our AC and hunt the Subs.

Also, is there a 054B, I know that 054A is an imporved verson of 054, but I think 054A still need some imporvements such as anti-air and anti-sub capability.

Jiang said...

Feng, we have 14 IL-76 and we might already converted 8 of them to KJ-2000, but why not convert all of them to KJ-2000? BTW, I told you that we might be able to get IL-76 and IL-78 from Ukrain, what do you think about this idea?

bigdaddy said...
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Jiang said...
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Jiang said...
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Jiang said...
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timurelame said...
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timurelame said...

Wow, this blog has turned into "Who invented this first?" slug-fest!

No need to argue who invented or discovered first of anything. The first humans were from Africa. They discovered the fire and the stone tools. The modern day Africans contributed greatly to music and sports.The Iranians (best friends of Bigdaddy?) invented the first batteries and the first refrigerators (hard to believe, but true). The Indians discovered the "Zero," the basis of mathematics and ALL modern sciences and technology. The Chinese invented gunpowder, the compass, the printing process, and paper (Jiang should be proud). The Germans invented automobiles and jet fighters (Not Americans).

You get the point.

So what if China and India are behind technologically now? Times change. Things happen...in due course.

The mighty US military could not win the Vietnam War nor can it win the war in Iraq. The way American economy is going, I think all of you will need to plan alternative ways of living soon.

So lets keep this great blog focused on the discussions of military hardwares of the PLA, not jingoism.

Feng said...

Alright, as I said, any more back and forth on this get deleted. This blog is for answering PLA questions. Bigdaddy, you are more than welcome to sign up with SDF or DT to discuss whatever problems you have. I will be more than happy to explain to you why J-10/JH-7A are not copied and why you've never heard of WS-500, WS-12, WS-15, but they are extremely important. My blog is for Q&A and information only. I leave my debates to forums. Jiang, you don't need to respond to Bigdaddy.

As for questions,
getting IL-76/78 might work, but PLA in general has a problem with second hand airframes. Ukraine certainly don't have any brand new ones.

As for 052C, it's only the first step to having a CeC network. They did not build anything for 5 years due to the problems that needed to be addressed + the fact that JN was moving. Of course, 052D is coming up next. As for 054B, it's been worked on. I think this next batch of 054 will be different from 054A, but still not different enough to be called 054B.

timurelame said...

I wonder just how bad the situation is with the Russians
in regards to the IL-76/78 issue?
If it is not resolved, will ALL future arms sales be stopped from Russia? Surely the sales will not drop to zero. Even if the Russians are getting flush with oil money, their military will still require
significant arms sales to maintain adequate R&D programs. The PLA certainly does not have much alternative at this point either, save the Y-8s.

Feng said...

Well, the Russians contend that they can do without Chinese sales, because they can get more domestic sales + export to countries like Algeria and Venezeula. But if you look at how many aircraft China buys and how many of them these other smaller country buys, you just can't replace it. But, IL-76 deal will drag on, I have a feeling it will never get completed. But right now, China's relationship with Russia is far more than just military exports.

Jiang said...
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Diwen said...
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bigdaddy said...
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timurelame said...

Here we go again. Some one should start another blog for these East vs. West "puke-fests" (for lack of a better term).

I think there are some inferiority complex issues here underlying all these posts. I know there is DEEP fear in the West regarding the rise of China, hence the China-bashings we see in the news media everyday. If China is so inferior, why bother attacking it day-in, day-out? We don't hear anyone attacking Uganda everyday, do we?

Changing the subject...

I have heard rumors that PLAN may be planning to upgrade the Sovs soon. I wonder if it's worth the trouble?

Feng said...

Alright, I had to delete another 3 posts. Jiang, there is no need to be racist to the Indians. Bigdaddy, you are just a racist period. Diwen, your comments excite Bigdaddy, so they are gone too.

Anyhow, this is just a routine cleanup of the comments.

bigdaddy said...

feng, go ahead call me a racist, because that's all a person like you can say when confronted with truth about your people that hurts.

Feng said...

I repeat, if anyone has problem with my views, come join http://www.sinodefenceforum.com to challenge my views, I will be more than welcome to debate you.

Jiang said...
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bigdaddy said...
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timurelame said...

There are rumors that PLAN may acquire an used SLAVA cruiser from the Ukraine. Any comments?

Feng said...

Yeah, I wrote this a while back actually. Slava doesn't make a lot of sense. It's an extremely old platform, the sensors are old, the weapons are all Russian. If PLAN wanted to, it could just build more 052C/Ds for air defense.

saintdeb said...

I had read somewhere that Chinese shipyards are now busy either with export orders or non-military vessels. Is that true? I think it should be prudent for Chinese to go for a few more ships from foreign shipyards just to replace the old ships at a faster pace. Cruisers seem to fit the bill perfectly with lot of firepower infused and could be a good vessel in any future chinese carrier group. I somehow feel PLAN should go for more ships with strong AShW capability (though I am not sure how good the chinese anti ship missile technology is currently). Maybe a few 500+ km supersonic AshM/ ASuW Cruise missile equipped ships!!!