Saturday, May 30, 2009

A trip around HD Shipyard + Xi'an AeroEngine PLC

Recently, a bunch of new photos have been released from the HuDong shipyard. There have been a lot of activities for Pakistani Navy, because F-22P hulls are making great process. 252 looks like it will be ready for sea trial soon. 253 have been launched. You can see them below:
First, 252 and the closed-up look to sensors + weapons on it.

Second, pictures of the newly launched 253.

We also saw new photos of the 3rd 054A from HD Shipyard. Not much to say, probably has a while to go until sea trials.

On a side note, we've seen a video of a CCTV's broadcast on 054A (since it's on the Somalia mission right now). It was actually pretty extensive. They showed the ship under construction, photos taken from top and also inside the ship. They interviewed the person in charge of the Huangpu shipyard. It was quite obvious that they spent a lot of money buying the tools and machinery needed to ensure quality of 054A.

The other thing that was interesting from today is when I read the securities report of the Xi'an AeroEngine PLC (You can find a copy of it here). In case you don't know, XAE is in charge of producing WS-9 for JH-7A and also developing the new generation WS-15 engine. The interesting part is that the report discussed the WS-10A and QC-280 projects (not something we really expected out of XAE). In an interview with XAE, we find that about 1/3 of the parts for WS-10A are produced in XAE (even though the assembly is done at Shenyang Liming). It was interesting to find that the parts produced by XAE for the WS-10A is said to be doubling this year (so maybe WS-10A production is doubling?). The report also said that this is done to allow engine conversion on front line fighter jets (like J-10/11), which was a little unexpected.

I'm guessing nobody has ever heard of the QC/D-280 project before. Well, it is supposed to the fully localized version of UGT-25000 (aka DN-80). Back when 8 UGT-25000 was first exported to China in 1990s, China also got the license for manufacturing. Now, it appears that China has fully mastered the technology for it and can build gas turbine without Ukrainian help. It was already tested on 169. Now, it seems that QC-280 has successfully passed the tests, so it is declared ready for mass production. The report says that 20 QC/D-280 will be produced every year. That does not mean China will be building 5 destroyers or 10 (depending on the propulsion configuration). In fact, I'd think QD-280 (the electricity generator version) will take up the bulk of that. However, it is clear that QC-280 will be the gas turbine used for future Chinese destroyers.


Mike said...

Hi Feng! I've been following your blog for a while now. Very great and professional work! I have a question about the turbines for China's future destroyers and frigates, the UGT-25000... is it any good? I'm no turbine expert, how does it compare to European and American designs? How important is the engine in a ship? I know in jet fighters, it's extremely important...

Another question, I know that China has had problems with aircraft engines, is the WS-10A in service? Does this mean that it had passed all of PLA's requirements and quality issues?

Thank you beforehand!

SA said...

Hi Feng!

Any idea about the range of HQ-16 used on Type054A?

What about recent news of S-400 in china?

Rick Joe said...

Hey Feng, I recently came across this article on UPI...

It goes on a bit, but how much do you reckon is fact? It claims the LCA is comparable to Eurofighter Rafale, Su-30 and more manouverable than J-10 and JF-17 which is a bit concerning.


Jiang said...

WS-10A is in serverce with J-11B, and soon will be equibed onto J-10A/B. Right now eigine is not a problem anymore, becasue China has solved aircraft engine problem and working pretty hard on large gas turbine eignie for ships. Right now China has access to Ukrain for gas turbine so China does not have to deal with the russians anymore.

S-400, I am not sure. Cause the russians are not getting the job done yet, so they need more time.

Eric Z, to the indians their weapons are GOD's weapon much better that any body else's. Of course it is only according to the indians. LOL. Do you know why that the indians never manage to export their weapon to a single country yet?? While China has exported weapons to many countries like Pakistan, Egypt, Iran, Thalind and more. The indians the ultimate champians for World Class BULLSH!T.

Jiang said...

Also, I forgot to mention that LCA(Late comes aircrat) after 28 years is yet to enter service and of course it is "FAR FAR FAR FAR better than F-22 Raptor".

The AJUNK tank after 33 year is yet to be finished so yes it is " FAR FAR FAR superier than the M1-A2 tank". lol, am I acting like an indian??

Rick Joe said...

Jiang, though I do agree with you that some Indians are overly nationalistic, we shouldn't mock them.

We should not become as bad (as some of them at any rate. Most Indians are cool as) as they are.
but thanks for the reply Jiang.

Anyway, to clarify some of my questions...
Is the LCA comparable to any of the following?-F-16, F-18, Rafael, Grippen, Su-30, and Eurofighter
How much of this is true: "Enemy missiles cannot catch the aircraft because its composite material prevents a missile lock"
Is the LCA more manouverable than JF-17 and J-10?

The rest of the article, talking about J-10 and Lavi and it being 3rd gen and such can be easily dismissed.

Mike said...

To Eric:

The LCA remains to be seen, currently it is far from a competitor to the Eurofighter, Rafale or all American "teens".

The LCA's engine is underpowered,this is well known issue (google it!). The radar should be alright but I believe it's still not in the same class as those in the European & American fighters.

Composite materials can be locked on I believe, as I heard that the EF have been able to lock onto a F22 in an exercise between UK and US. JF17 is in the same class as the LCA while the J10 is in a bigger class (F16 class).

Su30 mki and EF and F15 are heavy fighters. :D

Unknown said...

Jiang your post is most hilarious and I am still laughing while writing this post.
However, you missed one very small but most vital point. You forgot to mention why the Russians are willing to sell more advanced weapons to India and not to China. They know that the Chinese are smart and will copy and produce even better product than the original a feat the Indians are incapable of. The facts that the Pakistani are able to maintain and service their aircrafts to obtain maximum usage awhile the Indians maintenance of their assets are not that good reflect on their intelligence. Need I say more. I rest my case.

Jiang said...

Koh, let's stop this. I think we all know how "capable" the indians really are. lol. After all they are the Shoooopa Powwwar of the Universe.

I think you missed the fact that the russians are actually willing to sell their most advanced weapons. Look they even offered China SU-35BM the most advanced Flanker by far. Also, they offered S-400 and Amur class subs which are all of their most advanced weaponary. However, China no longer need them, because we Chinese know that adanvced military can never be bought, it has to be built by yourself just like "Skills can never be copied, it can only be developed". While the indians are always busy spending money buying weapons, we Chinese should never do the same anymore, cause in the long run, it will do no good. Instead we should stay foucus on developing our own weapons and weapon systems. With our massive amount of CA$H resvere, strong political wills, and talented engineers. It will never be a problem anymore. Just a matter of time.

Feng said...

Sorry for not getting to the questions earlier. UGT-25000 is a very good engine. It's output is similar to LM-2500+. For reference, these are the performance of QD-280 (remember this is slightly improved from UGT-25000)

output is 28670 kw. around 39000 shp.
thermal efficiency is 37%
gas flow is 86.7 kg/s
exhaust gas temperature is 500 C
Initial overhaul after 25000 hours

And yes, engine is also very important to ships. If it wasn't for the fact that France/Germany allowed China to license produce all the diesel engines, we wouldn't see the mass production of the PLAN large warships + 054 series ships. And now that QC-280 is finished, they have no problem mass producing 052 series ships.

HQ-16's range, probably 50 km? but that's not really that important. The importance is actually the range of the illuminators. If they can see the target, it's kind of pointless.

As for S-400, I haven't heard about China buying that. They are getting more HQ-9 these days. In fact, they felt so good about it that they put it into the Turkey competition.

Also, as for the UPI article, that's written by someone who has no clue about PLA. This guy still thinks China has no AWACS. I'm totally serious. It's hard to believe the kind of people writing articles on that site.

To Jiang, WS-10A is far from solid. It has a lot of quality issues recently. In fact, it's causing a lot of headaches. Part of it is the production quality of Shenyang Liming leaves a lot to be desired. Either way, they have a lot more to work on if they want to go completely independent of Russians for 4th generation fighters.

Unknown said...

Jiang I totally agree with you otherwise we could be labelled as India Basher.
Thanks for the updates. I never realize how dated I was.

Jiang said...

Feng, you WS-10A should be better thogh. I think the main problem is the lack of COMPETITION. Look Shenyang (SAC)really stinks, with support from China top officals yet they now lack behind CAC Chendu. Cause they lack competitiveness. I reall hope there will be more than one engine production company in China like the US, where there are PW and GE compete against each thus creat much better quality engine and performance.

Koh, we are not Bhindian basher but the Bhangee indians are China basher for sure, just go take look at any of their website, full of insult and BS about China. They caure so much about China they talk aboout us all the time, yet when is the last time you see a Chinese web site talk about india?? india is too irrelevent to us and even to the world that is why they have such inferioty complex problem. Just ingorn them.

Rick Joe said...

You know Jiang, by saying you're not an "indian basher" and calling indians "bhindian" kind of defeats the purpose of saying you're not an indian basher... -_-

I don't want to go all anti-indian but what Jiang said about some Indians are true and they talk much of Chinese people. Oh well. Let them do so.

Unknown said...

Jiang & Mike
I am aware of what Indians are. They had claimed even to this day that the 1962 war was started by China and not them. Worse the war took place on China territory taken by the british and given to India when they left. Luckily there are some sane, intelligent and enlightened Indian. Let us stop for they are what they are.

Feng said...

Again, this is not a bash-Indian site. And think about it this way, if you think lowly of Indians, why do you keep on comparing China to India? There is no need to do that. China's main opponents are on the East side.

As for engine maker, the point is that there are 3 or maybe even more major AeroEngine company in China, but in the case of Shenyang Liming, it still manages to struggle horribly with WS-10A production. XAE is supposedly better and it's also in charge with WS-15.

Unknown said...


i don’t know which Indian site bashes china and also you cant stop someone’s mouth, its a free world and everyone can talk about what they want.

There is no point in comparing LCA and J-10 both fall in different categories. no aircraft is superior than other ,every aircraft is designed to serve different sort of missions. After all its only the pilot who can truly exploit the machines ability which was witnessed during INDO-US exercises in which experienced MIG-21 pilots outperformed SU-30MKI rookies. the lca delay is due to various factors like lack of experience in designing sophisticated fighter aircraft, sanctions by US after nuke tests. you’re talking about weapons let me tell you the missiles in the Chinese inventory are not wholly Chinese they trace back their origins to Israeli python ,Italian aspide(aim-7) and various Russian missiles. even the latest PL-12 is a combination of R-77 seeker and aspides body. china is still dependent on Russian missiles. and I don’t think any Indian said that F-22 is inferior to LCA,but yes it was the USAF which urged pentagon to increase spending on raptors to counter the Indian and Chinese sukhois.the LCA is basically an interceptor ,its main purpose is to replace MIG-21s currently in the IAF. On the other hand some reports suggest that j-10 project was started around mid-seventies, still it uses AL-31FN TURBOFAN which is a Russian engine. it has numerous similarities with the IAI-LAVI & MIG-1.44. but still china heavily relies on sukhoi.

Second , you cant compare INDIA & CHINA. both have different type of governance and economy ,while china started developing in the eighties India started in the early nineties. no doubt china is a super power but you cant ignore us we are behind but we’ll catch up. all the weapon systems in china are not purely indigenous some are reverse engineered copies like the J-7.moreover Chinese govt is very serious about its country’s defense not like Indian govt.

We never proclaim about our defense systems; whenever the system tests are unsuccessful it is reported honestly. Don’t think of us as lowly.
We have some very great minds here; our moon mission is one of the successful and the cheapest in the world. Even most of top scientists working in NASA are Indians. the limited amount of budget we have I am proud of my country’s scientists.

Third, I don’t know why china is very skeptical about India. From the beginning china has supported Pakistan India’s major enemy while India never supported any anti china country. To make you all people understand let me give you an example of the recent ethnic riots in china the extremists are demanding a separate state and al-Qaeda is supporting them, the same situation is in Kashmir. Pakistan used this tactic against us and the world knows that even Hillary Clinton acknowledged that. Now if we start to support extremists in your country how will you feel. Even after November terrorist attacks Chinese govt assured Pakistan of full military and political support, you are now doing the same mistake the US did. a large amount of our defense budget goes to fund counter-terror programs. 

Regarding the 1962 war I only want to say that you can’t clap with one hand.

But still I don’t feel offended by the comments here.everyone is different & thinks differently.
I have many Chinese friends who respect my country and I do theirs.
To all bashers-may god bless you. 