Thursday, December 25, 2014

China 5th generation project and Russia

It's always interesting for me to look back 10 years to see where things were to see how much have changed. I often do this with surface combatants because 10 years ago China did not have a fleet of 054/As or 052C/D or Type 071s or Type 056 that now form the backbone of their navy. It's less apparent when we look at the air force because China still has many J-7/8s around and still severely lacks strategic transport, tankers, large AEWC&C and helicopters.

Recently, I have been looking at J-20 progress and wondering about whether or not it is ahead of PAK-FA. I also have been talking with some people on India's participation in the PAK-FA program. Looking back now, was it possible for China to join the PAK-FA project with Russia instead of India (India would go for F-35 + MCA)? This is important question because India's participation in PAK-FA program means that China would probably not be able to buy PAK-FA until a much later point if at all.

Looking back on things, it's hard to see how things could have turned out differently. At the time, India was still buying most of its weapons from Russia, since it was not yet getting access to the most advanced US hardware. Russia also trusted India more than China, so was willing to give access to more advanced systems. In this case, it offered the co-development opportunity to India, which happily took up the offer. China at the time had just welcomed J-10 into service after 18 years of development and was in the process of indigenizing flankers. Although China had already started working on the 5th generation R&D, it was unclear just how long it would take them to finish. These efforts were given the designation J-XX and speculations ran wild on SAC's work on them. There were speculations on Chinese sites that this project would be ready by 2015. All of that were wild speculations that by now have been invalidated. Given the amount of R&D required to develop a 5th generation aircraft, it was unclear if China would be able to have something in service before 2025. For someone like me that was outside of the situation, I would've recommended to China to co-develop with Russia as well as work on its own program if the former was offered. That way, China has something that is reasonable capable if the domestic program does not progress on schedule. It would also have to divert resource, so would only have one domestic program focusing on a medium sized design. One of CAC or SAC will license produce the co-development and the other one produce the indigenous fighter jet. Even though China could afford to fund two such projects, this kind of investment would certainly divert money from improving domestic industry at a time when it was growing without Russian help.

We know that the Russian cooperation with China since 1992 have been very beneficial to China. China at that time already knew Western companies were very good at guarding its secrets and unlikely to assist China's modernization efforts. Russian companies simply lacked that expertise, so it sold a lot of technology to China quite cheaply. By early 2000, China had already obtained most of the non-strategic and matured weapon that it wanted from Russia. As Russia would see later on, China was also very good at copying the stuff that it liked. At this time, Russia had to offer China weapon system that was still in development stage to China. In the case of Su-30MKK, the project was delivered very quickly by KNAAPO, because China was looking for something that was rather mature. So while the avionics were not very impressive, China did get something that was able to carry a lot of payload and have long range. China has since used its experience with this platform to develop J-16. While some of the weapons that came with Su-30MKK were mature and got delivered at the same time, other subsystems were still to be delivered and came way behind schedule like SAPSAN-E. Similarly, while Russians were able to deliver things they already developed very quickly and cheaply, the development of new subsystems were late more often than not. Even though J-10s have been getting AL-31FN engines on time for years, the 99M project that China funded have lagged behind 117S development to the point that China has been considering Su-35 purchase just to access 117S. At the same time, PLAAF must have had a lot of confidence in the continued improvement of AVIC1 and the progress of their R&D to believe that they will be able to complete the projects in a reasonable manner.

Back a year ago at this point, it looked like the PAK-FA was quite ahead of J-20, since it had 5 vs 2 flying prototypes. Since then, we found out that China was planning some major changes that moved J-20 off the demonstration phase and produced 4 J-20 prototypes this year in what looks to be LRIP. PAK-FA's T-50-5 prototype suffered fire problems in a demonstration in front Indian representatives in June and that may have slowed down the program somewhat. Even so, I would imagine PAK-FA program have had far more test flights than J-20. However, there is speculation that a 2nd stage of PAK-FA development is coming with some major changes in store. I guess these changes are to address deficiencies found in the flight tests of the first prototypes. It would be interesting to see if the level of changes will be the same as we saw on No. 2011, but the new PAK-FA prototypes should be more cleaned up that are closer to production version. Since J-20 prototypes are already at that point now, it could be the case that J-20's airframe is now further ahead in development than PAK-FA. As far as the subsystems, I think J-20's engine solution is a bigger issue now than PAK-FA, because it's probably using AL-31FN Series 3 which would have less thrust (13.5 ton) than Type 117. Even further iterations of AL-31FN series is likely to have less power than Type 117, which is probably why China is trying to get Type 117S. This effort also points to uncertainty to the improved variant of FWS-10 engine. For the long run, it appears China's WS-15 project will probably be ready for mass production at around the same time as Russia's Izdeliye 30 project. I think out of everything, J-20's avionics subsystems are probably further ahead than that of Russia. The AESA radar, modern MMI and the integrated electronic system for the modern network centric warfare will be tested on J-10 series first. While it's hard to predict what level all of this will be, J-20's subsystems will not be China or CAC's first kick at the can. For example, J-20's radar will most likely use GaN T/R modules rather than GaA T/R modules. Russia is still in the process of bringing down the cost of producing GaA T/R modules and PAK-FA will be their first fighter jet to use AESA radar. We should get a better idea of the progress of the two project by this point next year, since the 2nd stage prototypes of PAK-FA should come out by then. With the appearance of FC-31 project, it certainly seems like China is better off going alone even if it had been offered co-development of PAK-FA. At this point, J-20 looks slightly closer to joining service than PAK-FA (albeit with underpowered engine) and also looks to be far more stealthy than PAK-FA.


Unknown said...

Isn't the J-20 China's first AESA equipped fast jet?

Feng said...

no, it will be J-10B/C

Unknown said...

What about the J-11B?

Feng said...

It's using mechanically scanned radar. In the future, you could see J-16 and possibly J-15 use it.

Mythbuster said...

Although some Western critics with a bigotry mindset continue to assume that the current J20 prototype is powered by a Russian made AL-31FN Series 3 engine, I am one of those who strongly disagreed.
I based my argument on
1. The dimension of the AL-31FN Series 3 and WS15 is different. WS15 is much larger in dimension. We can see the distinct gap in the nozzle fuselage of the J21 Gyrofalcon or what many called J31 with the RD93. The WS-12 was supposedly bigger in dimension when ready.
2. Next one only need to listen to the sound generate by the AL-31FN Series 3 powered J11A or J10 then compared them to those generated by the J20 engine. The AL-31FN Series 3 has a higher pitch noise. The lower pitch J20 appeared to have a much higher bypass engine.
3. Next the flame of J20 engine is consistently blue in color meaning a higher temperature engine.

I tend to believe that the prototype WS15 engine which begin in its program in 2006 has already been installed on the J20 for parallel testing. Although some experts may concluded that it is silly and dangerous. But do we really know how advance is the WS15 program at the point. Maybe it is on the verge of limited batch production based on the present of the another J20 number 2015.

Mythbuster said...

Mechanically scanned radar on J10C andJ20.

I think China's RADAR EXPERT Dr. Wu ManQing may begged to differ. Although like Chinese experts, he will modestly citing his achievement of having reached Advanced International Standard.

Rumor has it that the KJ-3000 is probably the most 3D AWACS radar in the world today. With NO MECHANICAL rotating or moving part mounted on an IL-76, I considered it a brilliant setup.

Off course, that is also my personal opinion as well.

Feng said...

I don't know what you are talking about here. Are you saying J-10C and J-20 are using Mechanically scanned radar or not? If not, then why are you posting it?

As for J-20 being powered by WS-15, you might be the only one thinking that way. But feel free to go ahead to one of the Chinese forums and present your point of view.

Mythbuster said...

Off course they are all using mechanical scanned radar including USAF F22 or F35!

But who knows what the future may bring. What I am trying to say is mechanical scanned may be rendered obsolete based on Dr Wu ManQing's model of a perfect radar.

As for my opinion on WS-15 being fitted on J-20, I am certainly not alone with my thought. You may not share my idea at this point of time but there are many out there who equally disagree with you on your opinion that the J-20 is presently tested using a Russian engine e.g. AL-31FN Series 3. After all Chinese Military Program are shred in secrecy and for anyone to conclude that AL-31FN Series 3 powered J-20 will be the standard equipment until WS-15 is proclaimed TOTALLY SUCCESSFUL is equally ridiculous.

Remember some time ago when someone claimed that Chinese warships do not have any VDS because the dimension of the opening is too small. I disagreed and question that individual why a size of VDS may be universal. Why can't the Chinese version be different. Time have proven that I am indeed right and today they are fitted on the 056 as well as 54A warship.

Mythbuster said...

Just as I am not surprised what someone suggested in the net that the Russia have been quietly testing their PAK FA T-50 FGFA using Izdeliye 30 engines instead of the AL-41F or 117S series engine. In fact one of the Russia aviation expert have unofficially confirmed it. We will know when the final product is ready but India will be getting the version based on the AL-41F engine.

This may help to explain why a prototype Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA fifth-generation fighter aircraft caught fire on 10 June 2014 during landing. Izdeliye 30 is a very high temperature engine.

The WS15 using China proprietary Nob-Ti-Al alloy which is very very light and can withstand very high temperature.

willytan1 said...

Hello Feng, Happy New Year and may 2015 be a great year for you and your blog.

Since we are on the topic of the WS-15, i would like to make some observations. I cannot help but notice that the WS-15 turbofan is quite similar to the P&W F135 (that powers the F-35) in terms of the dimensions as well as the thrust goal of 18tons. Whether this is mere coincidence or part of PLAAF military strategy is up for debate.

If the WS-15 is sucessfully produced and meets its thrust goals, AVIC could in theory develop a fighter jet in the same weight and performance class as the F-35. It could also produce a STOVL version similar to the F-35B. A STOVL fighter could be handy for the
Plaaf when it is based in the mountainous regions of Tibet or the small islands of the South China Sea. I emphasise that all this is purely speculation at the present time.

However, i am inclined to believe that AVIC will eventually produce a F-35 class fighter. The reason is based on PLAAF fighter production doctrine. China has always produced a single engine and used it on 2 aircraft, a twin engine and a single engine fighter. Eg: WS-10 for the J-11B and the J-10.
Also the WP-13A for the J-7 and the J-8.

Unless there is a recent change in PLAAF procurement doctrine, we can expect a single engine stealth fighter powered by the WS-15 to be produced in the future. This fighter will likely replace the J-10.
This is more likely now that we know that the J-31 is a private venture by SAC.

This is just my personal thoughts on this matter but don't be at all surprised when AVIC rolls out this fighter one day in the future.